After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

[Robert Ruffo New]

What is your take on AJA Cion?

Horrendous color science, probably due to very poor dye implementation on the sensor itself. Truly awful skin rendition because of weird colors appearing on skin, creating not only poor overall color, but strange splotches. Total garbage.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Horrendous color science, probably due to very poor dye implementation on the sensor itself. Truly awful skin rendition because of weird colors appearing on skin, creating not only poor overall color, but strange splotches. Total garbage.

THX.
I haven't seen any evaluable images from it yet, and have heard wildly differing opinions on it.

In this context I was more thinking of the form factor/functionality of the body, though, as I think it's not yet released.
I'll wait passing judgement on that, until it is.

Interesting crystal balls here.

 

[richard cook]

I think the Red have made the Epic into a first class camera, the big thing they have got right is to develop the camera but keep the body shape the same so all the accessories etc can still be used and upgrades can be done. Naturally things move on and progress but to just redesign cameras and bring out new models every five minutes is not the way to go.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Red is a comparable small company, with resources that are limited. They will have to decide what the heading is.

Nice, sober summary Hans. Yes, perspective is everything and photography/filmmaking has lots of breadth when all aspects are considered.

From one thing to another:

If RED came out on Jan 1. with a store refresh and they only sold the Epic Dragon including mount and SSD for $8000… would they make more or less money than today?

That is, at what price does the exponential increase in demand offset selling at a lower price? At first, consider this without any shipping limitations. That is, they could deliver an Epic to anyone willing to buy within 14 days.

We don't know what the actual cost of goods is for an Epic Dragon, but let's assume the lion's part of todays price is prior R&D.

 

[egon touste]

How much dynamic range do you want? What ISO? I'm really satisfied with Dragon's color, 16.5 stops of DR, and low light capabilities (clean ISO 2000 w/ the LLO OLPF).

wow.. you did tests and found out the dragon had exactly 16.5 stops of DR?

.. you must have carried out the same tests red did, then reached the same subjective opinion?

yes.. they decided that the ISO was 16.5 stops also.. probably by measuring the tail end of a graph..you came to the same conclusions they did?

maybe his subjective review of ISO and noise floor led him somewhere else, i know i disagreed with the "usable" amount of DR from the R1 mx.. some of my cllients measured usable DR at about 8stops..

also, i hear the noise on the dragon ain't the best with the new skin tone olpf, but at least that solves the flare problem, caused i suspect by the fill factor around the pixels being too large, and the lowpass effects of the original filter not covering this adequately.. not sure its a good choice for a high speed camera?

..of course we can change the olpf..but its not a "in the field" operation.. meanwhile i noticed the new panasonic 4k varicam has a switch if you want more sensitivity, one mode has clean iso5000..

i think there is room for improvement personally, i see other companies/rival camera manufacturers making them too

my vote is for 4.5 or 5k of bigger pixels. ill take mine on a full frame sensor please..

 

[Enrique Blein]

wow.. you did tests and found out the dragon had exactly 16.5 stops of DR?

.. you must have carried out the same tests red did, then reached the same subjective opinion?

yes.. they decided that the ISO was 16.5 stops also.. probably by measuring the tail end of a graph..you came to the same conclusions they did?

maybe his subjective review of ISO and noise floor led him somewhere else, i know i disagreed with the "usable" amount of DR from the R1 mx.. some of my cllients measured usable DR at about 8stops..

also, i hear the noise on the dragon ain't the best with the new skin tone olpf, but at least that solves the flare problem, caused i suspect by the fill factor around the pixels being too large, and the lowpass effects of the original filter not covering this adequately.. not sure its a good choice for a high speed camera?

..of course we can change the olpf..but its not a "in the field" operation.. meanwhile i noticed the new panasonic 4k varicam has a switch if you want more sensitivity, one mode has clean iso5000..

i think there is room for improvement personally, i see other companies/rival camera manufacturers making them too

my vote is for 4.5 or 5k of bigger pixels. ill take mine on a full frame sensor please..

That's what I was driving at, drop the humongous resolutions and give us the best possible bit depth/dr/clean ISO/frame rates

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

That's what I was driving at, drop the humongous resolutions and give us the best possible bit depth/dr/clean ISO/frame rates

And no black shading please!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

REDCODE will likely advance rather than go away. I can't fathom Red dropping the concept all together. That would be silly. And there are still advantages particularly when comparing it to H.265.

I'd propose keeping Redcode RAW as is and embracing H.265 for Redcode RGB.
4K/2160p scaled RGB @ ~400 Mb/s, 12 bit 4:4:4 H.265 High Intra Profile, Level 6.1/6.2

Prores for UHD capture route is a waste of resources and is currently an option only because there is no better alternative.
This can make high quality UHD workflow practical as today's Prores HD workflow is.

Dual recording option, Redcode RAW as is - on-board, Redcode RGB with a module for lighter direct-to-edit high quality codec.

 

[Shane Kelly]

I think the Red have made the Epic into a first class camera, the big thing they have got right is to develop the camera but keep the body shape the same so all the accessories etc can still be used and upgrades can be done. Naturally things move on and progress but to just redesign cameras and bring out new models every five minutes is not the way to go.

On the contrary, I think that the dragon launch was a missed opportunity to redesign the camera and improve the ergonomics. They could have stuck with the modular promises of the epic but actually designed them correctly instead of as afterthoughts. If it hadn't been for w camera and innocinema a lot of us would have had trouble doing jobs with the epic when it was launched. This led to a lot of AC's hating the camera on launch as there was no consistency in the rental packages.
Maybe next time red could talk with operators and AC's and determine what they look for in a camera and instead of reinventing the wheel as far as accessories go, look at what is needed on a film set. (xlr's , multiple bnc's, handhold ability, etc, etc).

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

THX.
I haven't seen any evaluable images from it yet, and have heard wildly differing opinions on it.

In this context I was more thinking of the form factor/functionality of the body, though, as I think it's not yet released.
I'll wait passing judgement on that, until it is.

Interesting crystal balls here.

Form factor is only good thing about it - so you can easily shoulder mount the camera, and then make ugly-only images with it - but hey, with good ergonomics.

I'd much rather have a science project style Epic rig

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

wow.. you did tests and found out the dragon had exactly 16.5 stops of DR?

.. you must have carried out the same tests red did, then reached the same subjective opinion?

yes.. they decided that the ISO was 16.5 stops also.. probably by measuring the tail end of a graph..you came to the same conclusions they did?

maybe his subjective review of ISO and noise floor led him somewhere else, i know i disagreed with the "usable" amount of DR from the R1 mx.. some of my cllients measured usable DR at about 8stops..

also, i hear the noise on the dragon ain't the best with the new skin tone olpf, but at least that solves the flare problem, caused i suspect by the fill factor around the pixels being too large, and the lowpass effects of the original filter not covering this adequately.. not sure its a good choice for a high speed camera?

..of course we can change the olpf..but its not a "in the field" operation.. meanwhile i noticed the new panasonic 4k varicam has a switch if you want more sensitivity, one mode has clean iso5000..

i think there is room for improvement personally, i see other companies/rival camera manufacturers making them too

my vote is for 4.5 or 5k of bigger pixels. ill take mine on a full frame sensor please..

MX 8 stops = not knowing how to expose nor use Red images in post. Gross incompetence does not generate useful data.

I measured just under 13 usable, 13.5 with noise reduction.

However, yes agree - give me better pixels, not more pixels no one can even see.

 

[richard cook]

On the contrary, I think that the dragon launch was a missed opportunity to redesign the camera and improve the ergonomics. They could have stuck with the modular promises of the epic but actually designed them correctly instead of as afterthoughts. If it hadn't been for w camera and innocinema a lot of us would have had trouble doing jobs with the epic when it was launched. This led to a lot of AC's hating the camera on launch as there was no consistency in the rental packages.
Maybe next time red could talk with operators and AC's and determine what they look for in a camera and instead of reinventing the wheel as far as accessories go, look at what is needed on a film set. (xlr's , multiple bnc's, handhold ability, etc, etc).

Ah thats the problem we both need different things! For wildlife, documentary work and lugging kit up hills, the last thing I want is XLR and BNC cables trailing all over the place, sound men can record there own thing. I agree some of the accessories are not quite right. I have most things machined up to my own design anyway so having a little box of a camera is for me ideal and very versatile .. I can plonk it almost anywhere!

 

[Shane Kelly]

Ah thats the problem we both need different things! For wildlife, documentary work and lugging kit up hills, the last thing I want is XLR and BNC cables trailing all over the place, sound men can record there own thing. I agree some of the accessories are not quite right. I have most things machined up to my own design anyway so having a little box of a camera is for me ideal and very versatile .. I can plonk it almost anywhere!

That's very true Richard and I have used the epic stripped down with a revolt in the handle shooting 120fps. But I also use it with an optimo 24-290 fully built up. I'm just saying that the modules could have served both markets if they had have been designed properly. My F55 has a snap-on raw unit that works beautifully, if you don't need it, just put on the v-mount adapter and you have a smaller camera. I'm pretty sure that sony took the idea from red but the difference is that they did it much better.
The idea is solid on red's part, just not the execution.

 

[alex minert]

I thought it was a new sensor with more capabilities. I honestly don't know though I'm a newbie in the Red world haha.

 

[Antony Newman]

Sensor : When we say 'please concentrate on sensitivity' and 'less colour noise in darkness' - what we are talking about how many photons are being thrown away /absorbed / not converted into a digital signal at each pixel.

The first two of these are determined by the quantum efficiency of the sensors.
+) I believe the existing 'deep trenches' that the photosites live will be enchanced to the 'capacitor deep trenches' (which has been shown to have a marked effect on QE)
+) Or there is an option to move to new process technologies that betters Panasonics Prism spitting experiments. They look more like a 4 layer solar panels sandwich in which the depth of the layer determines the wavelength of light absorption.

The first option is a 'quick' win.
The second option (1 pixel for ir.RGB.uv) is supposedly orders of magnitude better QE than CFA + 4 pixels. Red could then use a ~6k FF sensor, and get pristine S35 4K imagery (no bayer pattern), have 40% larger pixels... which should mean a clean image with significantly less light.

Analogue to Digital : NHK are experimenting with building the ADC into the sensor .... on a per-pixel level.
With no chip to chip wires to 'heat up' - this should both keep the sensor power down, And increase Signal to Noise (better colour in darkness and higher moving image compression)

AJ

 

[Elsie N]

8k sensor with PCIe based 1 TB media.

After reading this I think RED may eventually adopt some new material like the one in the link (if they get the Scandium replaced by something less expensive) and come with a new lighter form factor that still accepts current accessories. Even accessories will hopefully get lighter.

I'm imagining that RED had no interest in a truly lightweight camera in the beginning because they wanted to project indestructability... and what connotes that better than steel? I was really hoping that RED would build the Epic out of ceramics and cut the weight even more than they did. That would have really been revolutionary, but may have been unacceptable to dyed in the wool cameramen who would have had to accept the tactile feel of ceramics while shooting.

I think we have progressed to a point where we are used to things changing and the time is right to build something that is both strong and lightweight. Get the brain down to 2 or 3 lbs. and add new battery tech that will soon be upon us, increase the resolution (yes, I need that to crop and zoom within a shot to have options within a scene that I don't have to shoot over and over at different distances)... speed up the media and of course, make it a minimum of 1 TB.

I look forward to these kinds of changes to go along with the bells-and-whistles tech that RED probably is working on that I may or may not need. Just don't forget to tweak the basic needs.

 

[Rolf Kestermann]

On the contrary, I think that the dragon launch was a missed opportunity to redesign the camera and improve the ergonomics. They could have stuck with the modular promises of the epic but actually designed them correctly instead of as afterthoughts. If it hadn't been for w camera and innocinema a lot of us would have had trouble doing jobs with the epic when it was launched. This led to a lot of AC's hating the camera on launch as there was no consistency in the rental packages.
Maybe next time red could talk with operators and AC's and determine what they look for in a camera and instead of reinventing the wheel as far as accessories go, look at what is needed on a film set. (xlr's , multiple bnc's, handhold ability, etc, etc).

I so much agree, the only great thing about the Epic is its epic size, but who ever designs the accessories should be yanked of his chair immediately (too late I guess). When I first saw the camera I thought somebody flipped the plans. Turn it up side down and things make more sense, the fan doesn't blow in Your face, the plugs are reachable, the lens is lower, the evf plug is not in the way, the power button is with You, the media with the DIT and to prove it just look at the EVF and wonder why the Chrome emblem is on the inside. Still like it though, but for the future (said it in this forum a few times) they should revive the R1 in full frame Studio mode, no matter what K, but with a new viewfinder (without lag or strobing and good focusing size). I am worried a little with Arri 65 having sort of blown it all apart. Just look up the fate of Cameflex, Eclair and Aaton, all cameras of great innovation with Arri crushing them by either stealing their ideas or suing them out of business. Now they didn't just release a camera but a lens set as well, going straight after Panavision. Red will remain the Indie format, but it needs to become more pro, not just put pro stickers on every piece of dubious gear.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I so much agree, the only great thing about the Epic is its epic size, but who ever designs the accessories should be yanked of his chair immediately (too late I guess). When I first saw the camera I thought somebody flipped the plans. Turn it up side down and things make more sense, the fan doesn't blow in Your face, the plugs are reachable, the lens is lower, the evf plug is not in the way, the power button is with You, the media with the DIT and to prove it just look at the EVF and wonder why the Chrome emblem is on the inside. Still like it though, but for the future (said it in this forum a few times) they should revive the R1 in full frame Studio mode, no matter what K, but with a new viewfinder (without lag or strobing and good focusing size). I am worried a little with Arri 65 having sort of blown it all apart. Just look up the fate of Cameflex, Eclair and Aaton, all cameras of great innovation with Arri crushing them by either stealing their ideas or suing them out of business. Now they didn't just release a camera but a lens set as well, going straight after Panavision. Red will remain the Indie format, but it needs to become more pro, not just put pro stickers on every piece of dubious gear.

I had the pleasure of working with a very seasoned operator last week. He's worked on lots of big shows and features, mostly Alexa. He enjoyed working on RED on our project.

As we drove from set one night, he startled me by saying the following:

"You know, if RED could fix their form factor on Dragon...make everything industry standard...so all BNC connections, two video outs, etc, shoulder ready, all in ONE contained unit, so AC's wouldn't have to go adding tons of bits and bobs to make it work...EVERYONE would shoot Dragon."

I was stunned. I wasn't expecting that. He was clearly VERY impressed and partial to RED. But in his world, AC's prefer a camera that arrives on set ready to go.

Nothing wrong with modular. I love modular (hello gimbals!). But for big studio shoots, where there's "a way to do things"...a STUDIO version of Dragon would probably go a long way towards winning over AC's and producers.

 

[DJ Meyer]

But for big studio shoots, where there's "a way to do things"...a STUDIO version of Dragon would probably go a long way towards winning over AC's and producers.

I would submit that Red would not be where it is today without a healthy disregard for "the way things are done."

Viva la modularity!

Why would I want to carry around crap I'm not using?

 

[Luke Neumann]

I would submit that Red would not be where it is today without a healthy disregard for "the way things are done."

Viva la modularity!

Why would I want to carry around crap I'm not using?

I think he means that there should at least be a studio ready option...