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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

Kemalettin Sert said:
Im working with Red Epic since 2012 tried almost every shoulder rig (mantis ,wc,red,tilta and more) its not even close to Alexa.
i think you are the only one who is happy with it on shoulder.
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Such threads like this have been around quite often in the history of reduser. One topic aries all the time: ergonomics. I started my red-owner career with the Red One in the beginning of 2008 and used before as my private camera an Arri SR II S-16. The ergonomics of the RedOne are like the 435 handling ergonomics - barely existent. So in ergonomics the Red One was a clear step backwards.

I want to drop the camera on the tripod, put it on my shoulder, hold it in my hands, and put i down on the floor - all performed in seconds - like I did with my Arri SR.

No problem really with the Epic. I added the PlusOne Module, battery pack at the end of the PlusOne module, lightweight rods, the EVF on a sturdy Wooden Camera EFV support system and the 16-42 DP zoom lens. This gives a fairly usable handheld configuration, similar to handle like the SR with the Canon 8-64 lens. Its a kilo or so heavier, but not much more. IMHO, less is more, no shoulder "mounts" needed. Just drop the camera on the shoulder, hold it on the rods and/or the follow focus and balance it with your eye/EVF. If you push the EVF 10cm to the front the camera won't be front-heavy.

---

All those support aftermarket kits show that the new digital camera "form factor", box-design to be more precise, left many behind in a loss. Arri's Amira, and to a certain extend the Alexa set a standard how a camera for filmmaking should be designed in the digital age. Admittedly, the Arris cameras are a bit on the heavy side which I guess is due to the heat management, there is room for improvement.

I wish - but I'm sure it won't happen because Red is also aiming to the stills market - that Red's next camera will be a benchmark in ergonomics for filmmakers.



Hans
 
Luke Neumann said:
Like I said earlier, I think RED would do well to…
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I agree with the general idea, but I think $3000 is way too low. I DO think that RED should offer something to all the C100 buyers. RED's solution could even be slightly more expensive, but it would have to be shoot ready at that price, including handle and monitor.

I'd even go as far as to say that selling at $3000 could prove problematic. It would expose the camera to people who don't know photography/cinematography. I honestly think too many inexperienced users putting out poor footage can drag a camera down.

Shooting log or raw takes some understanding of how the system works and what needs to be done. Even reading these boards today, with knowledgable people(?) using the RED, I sometimes get the feeling there is some uncertainty on how to rate ISO and how to shoot for clean/textured images.

I like that RED has REDudaction and that red.com has Learn 101, but I still feel people are under educated on the system.

And on a side note: where's the easy to find and download (and play with), beautiful full resolution RED footage that shows off the camera? Why don't camera manufacturers provide more quality footage? It's the only way to control what potential customers sees first hand.

@Phil Holland: I went looking for your "it's just paint" clips because I wanted to do some tests. I saw that they had been taken down (preproduction footage). Is there some official RED Dragon footage out there to download?
 
AndreeMarkefors said:
I agree with the general idea, but I think $3000 is way too low. I DO think that RED should offer something to all the C100 buyers.
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That's what C100 is for. And Mk2 is much improved, tried it recently.

Lower pricing segment necessitates lower profit margins, which necessitates greatly increased production capacities, customer support and whole pile of other factors.

Red caters a niche market segment and attempt of competing in an already over-saturated market companies with multiple factories, six figure employees, nine to ten figure R&D budgets...is not the best business choice.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
That's what C100 is for. And Mk2 is much improved, tried it recently.

Lower pricing segment necessitates lower profit margins, which necessitates greatly increased production capacities, customer support and whole pile of other factors.

Red caters a niche market segment and attempt of competing in an already over-saturated market companies with multiple factories, six figure employees, nine to ten figure R&D budgets...is not the best business choice.
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If a company like Black Magic can do it then RED can do it. They had all of the plans to do it back in the day. The C100 is not an option at the price point I'm talking about...
 
AndreeMarkefors said:
I'd even go as far as to say that selling at $3000 could prove problematic. It would expose the camera to people who don't know photography/cinematography. I honestly think too many inexperienced users putting out poor footage can drag a camera down.
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At the same time, it would put it in the hands of talented up and comers that would buy into more expensive products later on because they trust the company...
 
In my opinion, Black Magic has not done a great job with cameras. The new URSA is a boat anchor. There seems to be a rather extreme disconnect between their engineering dept and their shooters.

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
In my opinion, Black Magic has not done a great job with cameras. The new URSA is a boat anchor. There seems to be a rather extreme disconnect between their engineering dept and their shooters.

Jay
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What is your take on AJA Cion?
 
From what I've heard anecdotally, the three new "cheap" 4k cameras, being the Ursa, the Sony FS7, and the Cion... Ursa is too heavy for practical purposes, Cion is shipping too late to the party, and the FS7 is selling like hot cakes. Seems if there is only room for one winner in this segment Sony has taken it, at least for this generation. I've only used the FS7 on a showroom floor, but I enjoyed it and the images are very pleasing, despite Sony's odd menu layout.

All 3 of these are cheaper than a scarlet, but I don't know if red should or could be competing here. I think there is a market for a more rugged pro camera priced above them that is more capable.
 
Travis MacRitchie said:
From what I've heard anecdotally, the three new "cheap" 4k cameras, being the Ursa, the Sony FS7, and the Cion... Ursa is too heavy for practical purposes, Cion is shipping too late to the party, and the FS7 is selling like hot cakes. Seems if there is only room for one winner in this segment Sony has taken it, at least for this generation. I've only used the FS7 on a showroom floor, but I enjoyed it and the images are very pleasing, despite Sony's odd menu layout.

All 3 of these are cheaper than a scarlet, but I don't know if red should or could be competing here. I think there is a market for a more rugged pro camera priced above them that is more capable.
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Sony is dominating most markets right now. My point is, it's untouched for RED and they could have owned it back in the day and were completely ready to.

I'd like to see them try again.
 
Luke Neumann said:
At the same time, it would put it in the hands of talented up and comers that would buy into more expensive products later on because they trust the company...
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Not sure if there is much logical reason to believe this. When people have a bigger budget and need a professional camera, they generally go for the trusted names in that industry, they don't give preference to the companies that made the cheaper cameras they were raised on. I learned how to make films by shooting on a Sankyo Super-8 camera, but that doesn't mean I wish Sankyo had made a 35mm camera so I could pick that company over Panavision and ARRI.

The low-end prosumer market is different than the high-end professional market. Being successful for one doesn't mean you'd be successful in the other. Also, the low-end market tends to need the economies of scale to lower production costs to make the units cheaper, which is why it makes less sense for a smaller company to pursue that market. You're asking Red to somehow make a camera that has more features than its competitors in the low-end market and yet sell it cheaper. It's a little like saying that Porsche could really sweep up the market dominated by cheap compact cars if they only made a high-end sports car and sold it for $15,000.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Not sure if there is much logical reason to believe this. When people have a bigger budget and need a professional camera, they generally go for the trusted names in that industry, they don't give preference to the companies that made the cheaper cameras they were raised on. I learned how to make films by shooting on a Sankyo Super-8 camera, but that doesn't mean I wish Sankyo had made a 35mm camera so I could pick that company over Panavision and ARRI.

The low-end prosumer market is different than the high-end professional market. Being successful for one doesn't mean you'd be successful in the other. Also, the low-end market tends to need the economies of scale to lower production costs to make the units cheaper, which is why it makes less sense for a smaller company to pursue that market.
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I bought into Scarlet first and have since owned both the Epic MX and Dragon. I know plenty of people who took this route. Got used to the workflow, the menus, how to get a nice image, so they move up the product line.

Of course it's different but it's only a matter of sheer output. I'm not saying it would be easy, I just think it would be a good idea. I would personally love to see it and I think it would diversify their product line AND customer base. Which is never a bad thing. You can't tell me that swapping all of the effort/resources they put into dead end products like RedRay and the various modules for a lower end camera would have them in a much better spot right now?
 
Heh. What I find interesting is Sony didn't even want to explore 4K cameras until 2015 originally. Red 100% influenced their accelerated pace. The F65 seems to be the only "true" competition for Dragon at the moment in my mind.

There are a lot of 4K cameras out now with various sensors and format sizes that land in various price points. Competing manufacturers are up to speed now. I don't know if Red really wants to explore the land of the cheap and many. I personally don't know if they want to compete against a G5 or whatever. I do believe they want to lead in image quality though. Resolution likely. Format size has been part of the original map as well as what history has shown us.

I see the drum beating hard for better high ISO performance. I understand that. Panasonic has released some fascinating tech with the Varicam 35 and that certainly makes one wonder of the various ways of utilizing that in the future. There's also a couple other possibilities out there to help shoot cleaner higher ISO images without in camera noise reduction that can be explored.
 
RED has had a few brilliant idea that didn't come true (at least not in time.)

3k for 3k would probably have been a market-sweeper at the time of its announcement. AND I can understand why they cancelled it at the time RED launched the Scarlet.
Odemax - while non-RED, tightly tied to the RED ecosystem - could have been a winner, if it was launched according to plan, but it didn't. And I think it would be a hard sell now.
The laser-projector... well... um... There is still room for that. But the development cost would probably tie up engineers too much.
RED-Ray launched 3 years earlier...

What happened in the audio-field, is that eventually it isn't technical measurable specs, but signal path, precision and competence which is sought after and paid for.

Expect to see the same in film.

To take the analogy to audio again:
Despite that "any" laptop can record 32 bit float and has an AD to support that, there is somehow still a market for high-end recording solutions. It's not only numbers.
It's what it actually sounds like and what you can do with the signal BEFORE and after it is recorded, that counts.

And I hope RED continues to stay in the upper/high-end level and push for "better images".

Dragon is to me (I know there are other opinions amongst some here) the quantum leap since the Mysterium - M sensor.

And I hope RED continue to push things like that.

Problem is that RED users have been so sucked into the "numbers game" so that when RED really "beats the numbers" in many ways with the Dragon, and delivers a "much more" beautiful image, people seem to not appreciate that as much.

Now. THAT is my opinion.

I think RED needs an entry level camera, which still could function for a feature-film. That is Scarlet.


Personally, I'd love to own a BM pocket Cinema camera, and really like the design cues from AJA Cion (not primarily designed for 3D rigs).
So I might by the pocket-camera.... No point for RED to make that...

But it's kinda odd to not appreciate what RED does with the Dragon...
And where that might point to in the future as to image quality.

All this said:
Panasonic has done something really smart with 2 "native" ISOs (if it works)
A rugged/good way to mount monitors and EVF delivered with those would be very smart.
Accessible contact points (and standard size please) for accessories would be nice "out of the box"
People really are not happy for all the un-uniform or shabby ways the monitoring and accessories gets mounted.
But RED "has" ET now, and I guess they're involved in the next body/bodies.

Maybe making different bodies for different markets...

I can see how all those approaches might pay off.

Then again.
Jim made the billions.
I did not.
 
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Phil Holland said:
Heh. What I find interesting is Sony didn't even want to explore 4K cameras until 2015 originally. Red 100% influenced their accelerated pace. The F65 seems to be the only "true" competition for Dragon at the moment in my mind.

They might not want to but I think it would be a good long term business decision. Think of the reach they would have right now if they focused the resources/time spent on Redray and a few of the other dead end products on a lower end version of Scarlet MX. Personally, in 2105 (basically) the entire RED line is a little over priced and the competition simply looks better from my financial standpoint. A few less specs, but I am confident enough in my DP skills that I can make up for that and save myself $5,000. That's just me being honest. Like you said, that has less to do with RED not innovating and more to do with them causing the competition to catch up. It has and now RED needs to innovate again (on some budget level...I think it makes more sense to move down a bit and diversify)
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Luke, what I think you miss, is that new product lines must fill "a hole". Especially when it's as crowded as it currently is.

RED1 did when it came. It filled an ocean of needs, really, which let people be happy to work with it "despite" a few things. Resulting image when well exposed was not one of those.
Epic did, and Scarlet entered the same segment as the C300 at the same time. I guess that those who went the Scarlet route back then are more likely to still use the same camera than many of the C300 buyers...

But There isn't much room in the 1k-3k$ market today.
And working with RED RAW is at least "different", mostly for better, but also for worse for the laptop youtube video-maker.

RED has defined high-end stills and film as their target segments (even though the cameras are used for many other uses)

I hope they keep focus on that.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Luke, what I think you miss, is that new product lines must fill "a hole". Especially when it's as crowded as it currently is.

RED1 did when it came. It filled an ocean of needs, really, which let people be happy to work with it "despite" a few things. Resulting image when well exposed was not one of those.
Epic did, and Scarlet entered the same segment as the C300 at the same time. I guess that those who went the Scarlet route back then are more likely to still use the same camera than many of the C300 buyers...

But There isn't much room in the 1k-3k$ market today.
And working with RED RAW is at least "different", mostly for better, but also for worse for the laptop youtube video-maker.

RED has defined high-end stills and film as their target segments (even though the cameras are used for many other uses)

I hope they keep focus on that.
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Oh no, I didn't miss that :)

Each of the cameras in the lower market have plenty of big flaws. A dumbed down version of even the MX sensor in a different body would make a huge splash and fill the "camera with no big flaws" hole fairly easily.

I don't think they should stop focusing on high end stuff, obviously. They have an edge there and it would be ridiculous to give that market up.
 
Luke Neumann said:
They might not want to but I think it would be a good long term business decision. Think of the reach they would have right now if they focused the resources/time spent on Redray and a few of the other dead end products on a lower end version of Scarlet MX. Personally, in 2105 (basically) the entire RED line is a little over priced and the competition simply looks better from my financial standpoint. A few less specs, but I am confident enough in my DP skills that I can make up for that and save myself $5,000. That's just me being honest. Like you said, that has less to do with RED not innovating and more to do with them causing the competition to catch up. It has and now RED needs to innovate again (on some budget level...I think it makes more sense to move down a bit and diversify)
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I see your POV for sure. But you are discounting that the currently pricing model "isn't working" for Red. Based on the shear amount of DSMC bodies out there, I don't think that's the case. But that's up to Red and their bottom and top line really. In terms of 5K and 6K capture systems there isn't too much competition in reality, but there is lots of competition in cameras that "do" 4K. So there's the rub.

Also, just to quote a valid quote:

Jarred Land said:
REDRAY is not dead.....
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I personally have wants and desired on what I'd like REDRAY to become and that would make it extremely handy for home, theatrical, and exhibition use. I've been to a few places now and REDRAY has been used in several applications abroad. I do want more optimization when it comes to encoding .RED export and the tools can be tightened up a bit. The players are out there though. Some are running all day long even.


I see a couple of profitable avenues that Red can explore with new product lines that would be useful for all of us and I do think they will be focused on the "core" business of digital motion and stills cameras as well as pushing R&D efforts towards some uncharted territory, though not "out of bounds" territory.
 
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