After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

[Hans von Sonntag]

Ok.

1. In 2016 Arri will bring a 5k camera to market that will deliver pristine 4k RGB with a DR clearly above 16 stops and a breath-taking colour fidelity at 1600 ISO virtually noise-free in a S-35mm sensor, matching anamorphics perfectly. The form factor will be smaller, more like the Amira, lighter, smaller, and a benchmark regarding handling and ergonomics. Price-wise it will be settled in the 30-40k range.

3. Red will leave the cinema and high-end TV market. Arri's dominance will be even stronger than today, not much room left.

4. Hence Red will bring a FF 35mm camera with 6+K resolution that will be even more suitable for stills photography than the Epic already is. The price for the camera will be around 20k. The default mount will be the Canon EF mount, not PL anymore. (My uneducated guess is that over 60% of the Red users today use non-PL lenses. There is a clear trend to still lenses in the Red universe.)

This all leads to the finding that the dragonized Epic I own will be my last Red camera. But hopefully it will last another 5+ years and service my needs well. Then I probably go back to Arri because I need a film camera and not a stills camera that also films quite well.

Total speculative, but the whole thread is.

Regarding resolution vs sensitivity/colour accuracy I am with David. The latter is much more important for me. 5KHD is the format I use 98% of the time. It matches S-35mm and PL lenses quite well. No need for a bigger sensor.



Hans

 

[Phil Holland]

Is the Dragon sensor so bad that people already talk about its replacement ?

No, it's a huge improvement over MX. It seems like a lot of the negative comments are coming from people that didn't upgrade and/or aren't exposing for the OLPF that's installed. For me, personally, it's a dream camera...

Oh, and my previous post was not a wish list, but rather my prediction about what's to come.

Ok nice, i was planning to upgrade my Red one Mx to Scarlet Dragon and all these messages made me feel like "maybe it doesn't worth it".. I have to make my own test, but thanks for your answer Brandon!

+1000 on that. %90 of people complaining about dragon those who didnt upgrade

There are different answers for everybody about the Dragon upgrade and if it's right or wrong for them. However, in yesterday's world of chaos and madness where Mysterium-X was brutally compared on a near weekly basis to competing cameras in regards to skin tone and various other things, Dragon has excelled in all of those "critical categories". There were and are Mysterium-X owners losing gigs and rentals due to that, even if showing their potential clients beautiful Mysterium-X work. The word travels as fast as the air can carry it.

For me the Color, Dynamic Range, Highlight Roll-Off, and IR Cut performance are both aesthetic pleasing and financially rewarding when working with Dragon on various shoots. Those are the main reasons I've looked away from using Mysterium-X over the last year because Dragon "is" that much better in those specific areas. I'm a fan of larger formats too, so 6K (and 5.5K) has been well excepted here. Abroad and in the wild, I see a lot of people shooting Dragon to use specifically the 5K image circle for it's resolution relevance to S35 3-Perf and it's ideal image circle for S35 designed lenses. That's made many people happy and for those who can wrap their head around the multi-format system concept it works well.

It's an interesting thing in reality. For many with Dragon it's easier to get nice images right out of the camera. I've seen a lot of "trash talk" about Dragon, but ignoring where it excels over Mysterium-X to me is silly whether you are upgrading to Dragon or not.

Mysterium-X has some long lasting legs and has been a tremendous medium, but for equally valid reasons Dragon will experience the same.

 

[Timur Civan]

EDIt. I was gonna rant about wanting a new body thats bigger and has ports... instead of a sensor, but i totally forgot about the PRO I/O module...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

There were and are Mysterium-X owners losing gigs and rentals due to that, even if showing their potential clients beautiful Mysterium-X work. The word travels as fast as the air can carry it.

hear, hear. This noise has all but died. I just don't hear those comparisons anymore. Dragon slayed 'em.

In fact, with more and more big commercials wanting to use 3-axis gimbal systems, RED is enjoying stronger demand than ever in these parts because it just works better with these systems. Nice.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

EDIt. I was gonna rant about wanting a new body thats bigger and has ports... instead of a sensor, but i totally forgot about the PRO I/O module...

Only thing that im jealous about Alexa it sits on my shoulder like perfect camera.Red Epic is Front heavy camera this makes everything worse for handheld use.

 

[Alex Bros]

I find with a proper rig (like the mantis or similar) and good battery placement the balance is perfect, and makes the Epic better for shoulder mounting than the Alexa

 

[A. Clint Litton]

A revised PRO-IO with improved power distribution would be nice. Power has always been a weak point in the red DSMC module ecosystem. A switronix jetpack or solid camera setup is maybe better in the end, but I agree with others that handheld is a very different entity with epic, difficult to get built up and as comfortable as an Alexa.

I'd still like to see a proper proxy module that can give us 2k/1080p deliverables in ProRes flavors with matching framerates/timecode as the 6k/5k raw recorded simultaneously. Even with gpu/rocket options, I think proxy module offers something to take some of the allure away from productions that go to Alexa for ease.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I find with a proper rig (like the mantis or similar) and good battery placement the balance is perfect, and makes the Epic better for shoulder mounting than the Alexa

Im working with Red Epic since 2012 tried almost every shoulder rig (mantis ,wc,red,tilta and more) its not even close to Alexa.
i think you are the only one who is happy with it on shoulder.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I guess I'm curious to hear what exactly people would even be using medium-format for since it's traditionally seen in IMAX, and my assumption is that there are very few people on these forums that have that kind of working coming in.

Well, for me with stills at least, I have equivalent focal lengths (80mm 645 FoV = 50mm FF35 FoV, for example) and shoot/print the same stuff/the same size. Again, the aesthetic over any need for any particular format size or resolution bump. The size and weight of 70mm/645 digital vs S35 digital would not be nearly as much as 70mm film vs 35mm film (cost would be way higher, but probably still less than between the film cameras, and the expense of increasing sensor size is always dropping), so I don't think people would really have to use one much differently.

Modularity isn't all that great. To an extent it can work well. Especially low tech stuff. But high tech? How many times have we bought computers that "could be upgraded", but when the time comes the whole computer has to go. Next gen CPUs use new sockets and new memory needs new motherboards… Most parts simply grow old too quickly in the ever changing tech industry.

To be fair, this doesn't HAVE to happen. They do this on purpose to sell more motherboards and memory. Yeah, the Dragon upgrade required new boards, but sensor upgrades /= modularity; all the modules released with MX still work on Dragon. Remember, Red never promised that modularity would include seamlessly upgrade-able brains. The original idea was that you'd buy a new brain, it'd just be everything else that you got to keep. The brain upgrades were a bonus.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Ok.

1. In 2016 Arri will bring a 5k camera to market that will deliver pristine 4k RGB with a DR clearly above 16 stops and a breath-taking colour fidelity at 1600 ISO virtually noise-free in a S-35mm sensor, matching anamorphics perfectly. The form factor will be smaller, more like the Amira, lighter, smaller, and a benchmark regarding handling and ergonomics. Price-wise it will be settled in the 30-40k range.

3. Red will leave the cinema and high-end TV market. Arri's dominance will be even stronger than today, not much room left.

4. Hence Red will bring a FF 35mm camera with 6+K resolution that will be even more suitable for stills photography than the Epic already is. The price for the camera will be around 20k. The default mount will be the Canon EF mount, not PL anymore. (My uneducated guess is that over 60% of the Red users today use non-PL lenses. There is a clear trend to still lenses in the Red universe.)

This all leads to the finding that the dragonized Epic I own will be my last Red camera. But hopefully it will last another 5+ years and service my needs well. Then I probably go back to Arri because I need a film camera and not a stills camera that also films quite well.

Total speculative, but the whole thread is.

Regarding resolution vs sensitivity/colour accuracy I am with David. The latter is much more important for me. 5KHD is the format I use 98% of the time. It matches S-35mm and PL lenses quite well. No need for a bigger sensor.



Hans

anything could happen ...
Today the world runs fast ...
Maybe in 2016 Red and Arri have the same characteristics, then the lightness and the price will make 'the difference ...
Or remain 'always a run-up year after year ....
A sure thing, now do even a small difference needs more years of effort ...
The gap will be more and more closely with the competition.
We begin to see the news of this Nab 2015.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

No black shading for exposure changes when you need slow motion. Even better, no black shading would be great!

This is a no-brainer. I have seen no responses from anyone at RED on whether the factory blackshade is fundamentally different (read: better quality) than the user blackshades (even if done perfectly) and my assumption is that it likely is. In which case, the camera should hold factory blackshades for all combos and auto-select based on whatever the user has selected. Just forget about the user having to do it ever. User blackshading should only be needed in exceptional circumstances.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Im working with Red Epic since 2012 tried almost every shoulder rig (mantis ,wc,red,tilta and more) its not even close to Alexa.
i think you are the only one who is happy with it on shoulder.

No, he's not the only one. LOL

 

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

This is a no-brainer. I have seen no responses from anyone at RED on whether the factory blackshade is fundamentally different (read: better quality) than the user blackshades (even if done perfectly) and my assumption is that it likely is. In which case, the camera should hold factory blackshades for all combos and auto-select based on whatever the user has selected. Just forget about the user having to do it ever. User blackshading should only be needed in exceptional circumstances.

I could not agree more Nikhil. Factory created black shades stored in camera that would change (much faster then currently) depending on temperature and what shutterspeed/framerate was selected would be amazing.

I also agree with everyone commenting on how they would like better low light performance over more pixels. I would also prefer faster frame rate options and better compression ratios over more pixels.

Edit: also minor request- any chance we can get the same badass spring loaded screws that stay in the adapter modules in all of the various lens mounts out there?

 

[harry stuckey]

When I see the advances that Sony has made in low light sensitivity and rapid and diverse developments overall in the industry (of which I do believe a large amount of credit goes to red for initiating) I am a bit worried about the future proof-ness of my Red investment. And I am having reservations considering the rather mediocre low light performance of the Red Dragon in completing my Dragon upgrade hoping that maybe the next iteration of sensor upgrades improves in this VITAL area of low light sensitivity which will do more to facilitate the creative process than I believe this continued push for ever higher resolutions. Low light sensitivity also opens up vast potential in lens selection and use. I would even be happier stick with a 5K sensor with the kind of ISO performance of the remarkable Sony A7s, rather than move up to 6k with average low light capability.

Then I realized - wait a second, why don't I just buy the Sony A7s - and therein lies the main dilemma for the Red Camera company. As an earlier commenter said, Red cannot be all things. And it seems to be pushing resolution as a way to distinguish itself from the competition. But that competition will not last long unless Red becomes just a niche camera and that is their thing, which might be what is happening.

As far as using the red epic as a stills camera, I don't really see that as it's future (or present) so I wouldn't spend too much energy on thinking about this heavy camera as a stills camera because there simply are too many options out there that would be much better and lighter in this regard so they must focus on being a movie camera and NOT a stills camera. Which is probably what they realize so it probably doesn't need to be stressed.

But in terms of it being a movie camera - it better be all things in that area or else it is destined for the dustbin for sure. And unless it tackles the low light problem soon - Sony will once again take over and Red will peter off in terms of new sales. So my recommendation to Red would be to get all your research and development NOT on higher resolutions but on tackling the low light problem to keep up with the Sonys.

And for the marketing department - don't you think that shooting clear video by moonlight is much more electrifying to promote than seeing incrementally more detail of the various pores and wrinkles on your subject?

SO in a nutshell LOW LIGHT CAPABILITY - LOW LIGHT over INCREASED RESOLUTION is the way forward - at least for the time being.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I know its not a huge want for some and many will use DSLR's. But I really would love and hope to see a legitimate Long Exposure setting that actually gives you usable content. I fully Understand that a GoPro isn't a RED but they did a great job implementing it into their platform and it has usable results in many cases.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Jim, if your reading this... we miss you.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'd like to see them finish Odemax, make the RedRay player encoding work faster, finally release the Meizler module, and also get a $10,000 4K laser projector released. Once these are done, they can concentrate on developing new products.

It'd also be nice to have a dead-silent Red Epic/Dragon (in terms of fan noise).

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I suspect red feel obliged to continue the push upwards in resolution. It's what they probably feel they are about.

I think the next iterations will be small jumps. The days of large leaps from R1 to Epic are gone. Expect the harder to spot improvements found with dragon.

I guess a high frame rate camera will come. I'd like to think focus might shift from resolution to high frame rate allowing them resources to focus on sensitivity / color.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'd like to see them finish Odemax, make the RedRay player encoding work faster, finally release the Meizler module, and also get a $10,000 4K laser projector released. Once these are done, they can concentrate on developing new products.

It'd also be nice to have a dead-silent Red Epic/Dragon (in terms of fan noise).

Just for the record. ODEMAX was not Red.

 

[Luke Neumann]

Say what you want, RED ticks off a lot of boxes. It might not have the low light but it does have a superior codec to Sony (from a usability standpoint), more resolution (take that how you will), and at least matches it in DR/color. It has an anamorphic mode, it has more frame rate options at more resolutions, and it's priced right in the ball park as the higher end Sony stuff.

Like I said earlier, I think RED would do well to dip down into the lower end of the market and deliver something under $3,000. Then focus on a high speed camera. Those are two markets that they could OWN. The lower end has options but many would move to RED instead of something like the GH4, A7s, or BMCC. Those cameras just don't check enough boxes. Whether it's 8 bit, FNP, small sensors, lens mounts, or a crappy codec. They all have issues.

A solid 4K/Raw camera that doesn't need any additional accessories. Make it easy on people. Hold back 80% of the high end features. 4K, Raw, s35, 60fps (120 in 2K). Boom, you own the market.

There might be thousands of customers at their current buy in point but there are tens of thousands down the line.

The MX Scarlet is NOT that camera. It requires too many accessories. You would need to basically give the brain away to get down to the lower budget level. IMO the current Scarlet is in no mans land from both a pricing standpoint and a specs standpoint. It's not quite "over priced" or "outdated" yet but it's getting really close to that point. They have needed something in the low end since the 3K for 3K days.