After DRAGON what is developing at RED....????

[Antony Newman]

What if the new sensor was 36mm wide and 7680 pixels across?

That could mean 4 pixels for a 3840 (4k) horizontal pixel finish.

Each pixel would be 94% the current 'x' dimension of existing Dragon sensor.

What if RGBL (L for luma) was used in each 2x2 on the new sensor.

With no colour filter on the Luma pixel - this would give the sensor the same Dragon monochrome 'look into the dark' sensitivity.

And with 38% more surface area collecting Blue and Red colours - likely less colour noise at a 4k finish.

AJ

 

[Thomas Koch]

645 is coming.

 

[Wil Wong]

My Wishlist (of things NOT invented yet):

1. "Raw focus" - the ability to refocus any object in post (and depth of field everything else).

2. Gyro sensor stabilizer - like a gimbal, the sensor is physically stabilizing the shot and eventually there is no need for a gimbal or steadicam. It's done at the lense and sensor to compensate shake and movement.

3. "Auto tracking" - if "Raw focus" isn't created yet, how about tracking faces or objects that move and keeps that particular item in focus. It recognizes the shape what it is and keeps it focus as long as it stays in frame. I still rather "Raw focus" but this might be a nice middle ground.

4. No 'fan' camera. May never happen but would be nice. No moving parts and all.

5. Wireless export - where there is no red station hooked up to a PC/Mac but the footage transfers via ultra-fast wifi. May not exist yet but hopefully one day wifi will be that fast (faster then thunderbolt 2 etc).

6. Ability to send out a wireless video/audio signal built into the camera (no extra hardware needed such as a module - built into the post Dragon camera). Video/audio received on laptop/Ios device/receiver hooked up to a tv/smart TV wifi.

7. ND filter system like the motion mount but built in and doesn't loose 1 stop. Clear is clear!

8. If building a post Dragon camera with new body & hardware... it should be much lighter then the carbon dragon, fanless, smaller perhaps like a go-pro body size but can hold a PL/EF/Nikon etc. lens and able to hook smaller modules to it. Use standardized system like arri plates and lose the module adapter concept. Less weight on EVERYTHING!!! Like the DSMC, keep it clean, simple, and easy - not cluttered or too many parts and pieces.


Yes, this stuff isn't currently possible but neither was 4K when Red started. Here's hoping for things that don't exist yet

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I want a lightfield camera. With current approaches that means you need more than 8k photosites for 4k delivery. Since focus is largely computed I'm ok with a FF35 sensor for sensitivity and pixel density.

What's after Dragon though? 65mm Dragon.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm enjoying this thread with some logical thoughts and some.... well, interesting weirdness for sure.

Do remember where Red cameras exist in the industry, especially now that "everybody" is now into the 4K game and some with some fairly directly inspired modular concepts.

Red's been a leader in the sensor size and resolution game and that has effected the industry in many ways. And personally I like the multi-format concept a hell of a lot. I'm shooting 6K all month, but in the last couple months I've been shooting 6K, 5.5K, and 5K. And heck, not to save cash on media and hardrives, but rather selecting them as formats. And 6K is far from bogging my modest system down in terms of workflow.

A side thought in terms of pixel design and pitch. There is something rather good going on with Dragon's 5K landing in the S35 3-perf realm.

Dragon is going to have some long lasting legs and we're still discovering new things dropping in.

While I see lots of chatter about the form factor again, I personally want the DSMC style body to remain. I think there is something powerful here and especially for all of us owners who are invested in the system. However, putting a new focus in the future on cleverly designed modules that flesh out the camera in more specific ways could be a good idea. I certainly have an idea or 5 there.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I want a Red stills camera. Look at how much cheaper a 12fps continuous Scarlet is than an 82fps continuous Epic. I know they could build a ~10fps buffered / ~3fps continuous camera I could afford.

I'm sick of mirror slap. And flange distance too long to adapt all the lenses I like to experiment with. I'm over DSLRs. Canon and Nikon haven't given us anything but minor iterations of the same tired ideas [themselves completely carried over from the film days, except with a sensor in place of the film transport] since the D1 generation. I need mirrorless. But nobody will build a real one. I have an A7 but it is absolute amateur hour. I need someone to build a mirrorless D4 / 1D X, and Nikon and Canon have shown no interest in that, so I'm looking to Red.

Same goes with a 70mm-style sensor - how many people are really shooting for IMAX that aren't Hollywood or large studios?

I agree with what you said about 8K (or anything above 4K, honestly, at least right now), but the sensor size discussion isn't really related to that since size and resolution are no longer directly related like they were with film. You can put any number of pixels on any size sensor. Somebody needs to tell Arri, though, because they're marketing the Alexa 65 as a mega-resolution IMAX camera even though it's the same resolution as the ~S35 Dragon. And somebody really needs to tell those marketing their lenses as "covers 4K" as though 4K was a physical size.

In other words, I don't think most people intrigued by a medium-format sensor want Red to build a nearly-11K monstrosity based on the Dragon pixel size. Medium format lenses have a completely different aesthetic (compounded by the fact that you're working with different focal lengths for equivalent fields of view) which I think a lot of people are interested in working with. I know that's why I own a 645 film camera even though my FF35 digitals give me all the resolution I need with 8000x less hassle.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Same goes with a 70mm-style sensor - how many people are really shooting for IMAX that aren't Hollywood or large studios?

Providing the camera is in the 50k to max 60k range. I'd buy one in a second!!!!! Shooting wildlife which is a traditional IMAX genre, and NHK looking at 8k broadcast I can see huge applications. It opens my world up to endless possibilities.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Most important thing how it looks on shoulder ? Dont want matchbox camera
Ergonomy is the key

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The great question for us who don't have a Dragon: Will the next sensor have an upgrade price? Is it possible to keep working with the MX until the next sensor and then upgrade instead of having to upgrade to Dragon THEN the next generation?
Because if you must have a Dragon camera before upgrading from that then many MX's get left behind.

 

[Tim Morten]

1. Smaller/lighter
2. Current DR is great; more could make low-light idiot-proof
3. Real stills mode, with corresponding battery life and autofocus
4. Integrate top-notch wireless (without inflating size or cost too much, without requiring expensive accs)
- Camera control
- Low latency video
- 4 channel digital audio
- Timecode/slate communication
- FIZ control
5. In-camera optical stabilization
6. Light field is interesting, but not sure the lens tech is mature enough to be practical
7. Fanless would be amazing!
8. Upgrade path for Dragon owners would be stellar, but Red has done so much for early customers already, they owe nothing on that front
9. Make it waterproof to 30m (maybe support Nikonos glass)?
10. Factory backed lease to own program

 

[PC Greene]

+1 shooting in lowlight makes me sad.

I'd prefer that future sensors not try to cram so many pixels into them that there are sensitivity issues.

Even if you keep to the current density of photosites on the Dragon sensor (6144 pixels across 30.7mm), then a Full-Frame 36mm wide sensor shouldn't exceed 7.2K.

That's already similar to the 36MP Full-Frame Nikon D810, which is 7.4K across, and that's not considered a low-light camera. Compare that to the sensitivity of the Sony A7S, which is also Full-Frame but is only 4.2K across. And in between is the 22MP Canon 5D, which is 5.8K across.

So pushing for an 8K Red camera that is Full-Frame is great if you aren't interested in sensitivity, otherwise I would aim for something with fewer photosites.

 

[PC Greene]

Certainly this must be "automatable"? Start up camera in auto calibration mode & it auto creates different bs profiles @ different frame rates and temps & then loads them dynamically on the fly...

Thank you,

No more "mysteries of blackshading" would be a good thing. It's not really an issue when you know about it, but has some destructive potential...

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Is it possible to keep working with the MX until the next sensor and then upgrade instead of having to upgrade to Dragon THEN the next generation?
Because if you must have a Dragon camera before upgrading from that then many MX's get left behind.

The MX SHOULD get left behind. In the hands of new RED users picking it up on the used market. They then become potential customers for new cameras down the line, when they in turn pass their cameras on to NEW users. The circle grows.

I totally get the first RED One trade-in. Those guys bought cameras that didn't exist and wasn't proven at all. That should have been a one time deal. RED then, unfortunately, got sucked in.

Modularity isn't all that great. To an extent it can work well. Especially low tech stuff. But high tech? How many times have we bought computers that "could be upgraded", but when the time comes the whole computer has to go. Next gen CPUs use new sockets and new memory needs new motherboards… Most parts simply grow old too quickly in the ever changing tech industry.

For RED, having to stick to their old brains and designs is more of a burden to carry, no doubt, than an asset for them.

If the Dragon sensor for an Epic MX user was like $5000, sure I'd get it then. But it isn't. You are paying camera prices for your upgrades, guys.

"No, the camera costs $30.000, upgrade is cheap". Well, 4k projectors cost $80.000, but that's not where that product is at. It will be $10.000 soon enough. And shortly after that $3500.

Owner operated cameras probably needs to come in at less than $15.000. I know many of you have done well/are doing well investing in RED and getting your money back and more. But where the images RED could produce in 2010 might have been unique, that is not the case anymore. And never will be again.

The resolution kick was great with the early REDs. Everyone else was way behind. 4k isn't even a de-facto standard in multi million film projects yet. When it is, ALL the players will have products for it. With technology, you want to be at the front of the curve, not way ahead of it. If you're ahead, nothing works right. No standards, other tools haven't caught up. Tools you might depend upon. Workflow gets heavy and "the benefits" mostly for show anyway, since nothing else is compatible.

The one thing RED DID bring to the table is REDcode. Shooing raw at 4k+ resolution with a cinematic DR—THAT is the sh*t. Raw that works. Manageable data "internally" to media that makes sense. A real DR of around 14 stops is plenty. 16.5? Better still. No need to push for more revolution or resolution. Now is the time for refinement (for joy of use) and expansion (business sense).

RED should have the skill by now to make a killer product that would be universally applauded and within reach for serious shooters willing to drop $10k+. But that is not where RED is just yet.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Is the Dragon sensor so bad that people already talk about its replacement ?

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Is the Dragon sensor so bad that people already talk about its replacement ?

No, it's a huge improvement over MX. It seems like a lot of the negative comments are coming from people that didn't upgrade and/or aren't exposing for the OLPF that's installed. For me, personally, it's a dream camera...

Oh, and my previous post was not a wish list, but rather my prediction about what's to come.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Ok nice, i was planning to upgrade my Red one Mx to Scarlet Dragon and all these messages made me feel like "maybe it doesn't worth it".. I have to make my own test, but thanks for your answer Brandon!

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

No, it's a huge improvement over MX. It seems like a lot of the negative comments are coming from people that didn't upgrade and/or aren't exposing for the OLPF that's installed. For me, personally, it's a dream camera...

Oh, and my previous post was not a wish list, but rather my prediction about what's to come.

+1000 on that. %90 of people complaining about dragon those who didnt upgrade

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

The increased resolution of Dragon doesn't get a lot of epic owners desperate to upgrade. And the improvements to the sensor while there, are not large enough warrant the upgrade for many either.

If you are buying in for the first time, go for Dragon.

For me to ditch Dragon for a new sensor it would need to offer real significant upgrades. However more resolution is not something I need.

 

[Zeb B]

Is the Dragon sensor so bad that people already talk about its replacement ?

It's not that - more like for a technology company, if there isn't an clear and aggressive (and hopefully enunciated) 5 year path forward of creative destruction, then it's normal for a customer to wonder if they're heading down a No Outlet road brand like MySpace or AOL. It's the Innovators Dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator's_Dilemma

Apple better be have an answer now on how to shitcan the iPhone, App Store and iTunes . . . before someone else beats them to it. Everything changes

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I just want them to keep making DRAGON enhancements.

More modules - I'd still to this day like a module which can record straight to popular formats - ProRes 422/444 and keeps the camera in a compact form factor

more interchangeable OLPF options released (is it possible to tweak one for even more light sensitivity than the current lowlight, given that the current one was based on the original OLPF standard?) - would like to see the IR versions, the low con version.

More better batteries! - would like RED to release longer-lasting Redvolts which can still be used with my side handle!! if I could somehow get 45mins - 1hr. record time on a redvolt, I'd be ecstatic because this could finally be that phat DSLR, if I could run it really stripped down without constantly changing batteries. Or maybe a V-mount which can take 2 existing Redvolts and be mounted to the rear - but small, light, tight, compact.

I'd be willing to pay up for an efficient lightweight power system, which conforms as closely as possible to the camera body or side handle.

I still think there are still a few miles to go on improving the form factor/power system relationship. I'd like more options.

I would just like to see optimization right now. Making a great system into everything it can be. Tighter, lighter, more compact. Less things that feel like they need to be bolted on but rather are part of a streamlined and enhanced system.

I feel like I don't have to compromise on image quality anymore - most of the compromises I feel that I make now are mostly ergonomics and feature set...would love to see these given a bit of perfecting.