Aesthetics of Zeiss Superspeeds vs CP.2

[Matt Ryan]

My set of Mk1 SS cover all 5kFF. 18mm has 0 Vignette that I can see.

Thats good news. I've never shot 5KFF for any shoot so never tested. I wonder though if that is only for the Mk1 versions as they were converted from b mount to pl rather than made for pl. If it is indeed true for all version that is great news.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Thats good news. I've never shot 5KFF for any shoot so never tested. I wonder though if that is only for the Mk1 versions as they were converted from b mount to pl rather than made for pl. If it is indeed true for all version that is great news.

I believe the image circle on all Super Speeds is a bit larger then Standard Speeds, right? I know Standards have been known to vignette a bit at 5K, but I've always heard that Supers had a more modern, larger image circle that covered more...and Paul's note seems to suggest that not only is this right, but that even early Supers behaved like this.

PS - I've seen Paul's Supers in action, and I can tell you first hand that the image they deliver is awesome. I love the three-blade iris look of the B-Speed/MK1's...it has a kinda poor man's anamorphic rendering to the bokeh that I really dig. I believe he has a 135mm T2 as well, which is a GREAT lens.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I believe the image circle on all Super Speeds is a bit larger then Standard Speeds, right? I know Standards have been known to vignette a bit at 5K, but I've always heard that Supers had a more modern, larger image circle that covered more...and Paul's note seems to suggest that not only is this right, but that even early Supers behaved like this.

PS - I've seen Paul's Supers in action, and I can tell you first hand that the image they deliver is awesome. I love the three-blade iris look of the B-Speed/MK1's...it has a kinda poor man's anamorphic rendering to the bokeh that I really dig. I believe he has a 135mm T2 as well, which is a GREAT lens.

Your right in that the image circle on Super Speeds is a bit larger than standard speeds. Thats good news that they cover 5KFF if you need the resolution.

 

[Will Keir]

Matt,

I love the review. Where do we go for more? I'm looking at the super speeds to purchase immediately.

I love Super Speeds. They are softer wide open (t1.3) but get just as sharp as Ultra Primes at 2.8 and up. They are still decently sharp wide open, just give a smoother appearance rather than crisp. Skin looks many times better on Super Speeds. They have less chromatic aberration than CP.2's (Especially purple fringing which I found excessive with the CP.2's). Contrast and color matches throughout all the Super Speeds as opposed to the slight variations in CP.2's. They have consistent apertures throughout the set unlike CP.2's. The are light weight, and have a smaller front diameter than Cp.2's (Cp.2's are 114mm and SS are 80mm). For my money Super Speeds are worth more than double the cost of CP.2's. I have used both sets now on several projects so I have hands on experience with both. The only advantage to CP.2's I see is that they cover full frame and are more affordable to rent. But I would personally choose Super Speed's whenever I could. I love being able to open up to 1.3 if need be.

If your looking to buy I highly recommend Super Speed Mark III (The most recent version). Stay away from first version (B mount or converted PL). Version II is good as well.

 

[Matt Ryan]

A lot of older films have been shot on them, some were mentioned here in the thread. As far as info goes there isn't really a lot out there. If your looking for really sharp images wide open at a t1.3 then Master Primes would be your #1 option. If you've used Supers you know they aren't very sharp wide open.

They are really hard to find for sale as they are old and rare. I actually think visual products has a set listed on their site. I'd give them a call and see if they are available still.
http://visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=1013&Cat=8&Cat2=18&Cat3=26


Here's some info on Super Speeds and the different versions:


Zeiss T 1.4 super speeds are NOT MK I. They originally came in “B” mount with no gears on the iris or focus. They rotate from close focus to infinity in a 180 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. The front elements are different sizes and need to be modified with Delrin 80mm front spacer rings and Arri gears. If you want them in PL (Positive Lock) you can use a “B” to PL adapter or change the entire rear mount to PL. When you are finished modifying, you have the Frankenstein bastard child super speed lens set from Hell that nobody wants to rent or own. The optical quality is excellent.





The Zeiss MK I super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 180 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. Some early models had no Arri 32 pitch gears on the iris. The assistant cameramen found it hard to hit marks when pulling focus so Arri/Zeiss changed the next generation to 360 degrees of travel from close focus to infinity.




The Zeiss MK II super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. This 360 degree movement is sometimes referred to as having extended markings or engravings. These lenses have factory gears on both the focus and iris. In July 2010, I was offered a MK I 1/2?. It had the 360 degree rotation, but only one focus gear. No iris gear. This lens must have been made when Arri changed over from MK I to MK II.




Zeiss MK III super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They also have much larger engravings then the previous models. These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. They still command top dollar at $ 35,000 - 40,000 for a set of five. (That price estimate was before the Red One came out which jacked up all lens prices lol) Highly-prized in the motion picture world, Zeiss Superspeed Lenses set the standard for cinematography lenses. With superior optics and time-tested performance & construction, these MKIII lenses represent the last version of the Superspeed line of Zeiss primes that were produced before Zeiss discontinued their production.

LENS FEATURES:
Full 360° focus barrel rotation
Large focus markings for easy reading
Integrated iris gears on all lenses
Integrated focus gears on all lenses
80mm fronts on all lenses
Ultra fast T1.3 maximum aperature
Patented T* coated optics for superior color reproduction





Zeiss Ultraprimes in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They are slower than the speed at T 1.9. large engravings . These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. You would be hard pressed to notice any difference on the screen between these lenses and the previous models. Rare; like military intelligence.





Zeiss Master primes in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They also have large engravings . These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. Outstanding quality. Super expensive.


Glass (picture quality) is excellent on all T 1.4, T 1.3 and T 1.9 lenses.

 

[Nick Morrison]

A lot of older films have been shot on them, some were mentioned here in the thread. As far as info goes there isn't really a lot out there. If your looking for really sharp images wide open at a t1.3 then Master Primes would be your #1 option. If you've used Supers you know they aren't very sharp wide open.

They are really hard to find for sale as they are old and rare. I actually think visual products has a set listed on their site. I'd give them a call and see if they are available still.
http://visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail03.asp?productID=1013&Cat=8&Cat2=18&Cat3=26


Here's some info on Super Speeds and the different versions:


Zeiss T 1.4 super speeds are NOT MK I. They originally came in “B” mount with no gears on the iris or focus. They rotate from close focus to infinity in a 180 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. The front elements are different sizes and need to be modified with Delrin 80mm front spacer rings and Arri gears. If you want them in PL (Positive Lock) you can use a “B” to PL adapter or change the entire rear mount to PL. When you are finished modifying, you have the Frankenstein bastard child super speed lens set from Hell that nobody wants to rent or own. The optical quality is excellent.





The Zeiss MK I super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 180 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. Some early models had no Arri 32 pitch gears on the iris. The assistant cameramen found it hard to hit marks when pulling focus so Arri/Zeiss changed the next generation to 360 degrees of travel from close focus to infinity.




The Zeiss MK II super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn of the focus barrel and have markings in feet AND meters. This 360 degree movement is sometimes referred to as having extended markings or engravings. These lenses have factory gears on both the focus and iris. In July 2010, I was offered a MK I 1/2?. It had the 360 degree rotation, but only one focus gear. No iris gear. This lens must have been made when Arri changed over from MK I to MK II.




Zeiss MK III super speeds in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They also have much larger engravings then the previous models. These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. They still command top dollar at $ 35,000 - 40,000 for a set of five. (That price estimate was before the Red One came out which jacked up all lens prices lol) Highly-prized in the motion picture world, Zeiss Superspeed Lenses set the standard for cinematography lenses. With superior optics and time-tested performance & construction, these MKIII lenses represent the last version of the Superspeed line of Zeiss primes that were produced before Zeiss discontinued their production.

LENS FEATURES:
Full 360° focus barrel rotation
Large focus markings for easy reading
Integrated iris gears on all lenses
Integrated focus gears on all lenses
80mm fronts on all lenses
Ultra fast T1.3 maximum aperature
Patented T* coated optics for superior color reproduction





Zeiss Ultraprimes in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They are slower than the speed at T 1.9. large engravings . These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. You would be hard pressed to notice any difference on the screen between these lenses and the previous models. Rare; like military intelligence.





Zeiss Master primes in PL go from close focus to infinity in a 360 degree turn and have extended markings in feet OR meters. They also have large engravings . These lenses have factory gears on the focus and iris. Outstanding quality. Super expensive.


Glass (picture quality) is excellent on all T 1.4, T 1.3 and T 1.9 lenses.

WOW. That was awesome.

 

[Will Keir]

Yeah thanks Matt, really went above and beyond on that one. It'll come back to ya! :wink:

 

[Matt Ryan]

This is basic stuff, Its all in the ASC Bible. Sorry if sound like a Dick but you are all kinda harshing on my lenses.

Huh? I haven't seen anyone in this thread "harshing" your lenses. I'm trying to sell Super Speeds here, they are my favorite lenses.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Hey Brant!
How did your shoot go and how did you like the lenses?

 

[Dustin Heindl]

Matt great write-up. I do like my CP.2 lenses for the price, they do what I need them to do, and I think I will sell my CP.2 35mm for the super speed CP.2 version when it comes out.
I do like the detailed focus marks and large barrel rotation for focusing with steadicam as well.

 

[Scot Yount]

This of course is a pretty old thread, bu I am wondering what people think the future for Super Speeds is. The largest rental house here in Boston is now selling a set they have had for 30 years...they are also selling a set of Standard Speeds. Are the Alexa LF and Monstro cameras, and lens makers making larger format lenses going to squash the old Zeiss?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I guess the real question is what the future looks like for large format cinematography. Will it become dominant, or just one of the choices at hand? I absolutely love the VV format personally, but what kind of legs will it have...
The other trend in play is the aesthetics. The first decade or so of digital has seen a lot of interest in "taking off the digital edge" with filters, vintage glass, post software, etc. In narrative work, looking too much like real life may not be desired. That said, the times they are a changin'. Audience expectations are being reconditioned, in part due to modern display tech. Motion smoothing might be an abomination to many of us, but how universal is that reaction - especially for viewers under 30?

Cheers - #19

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I guess the real question is what the future looks like for large format cinematography. Will it become dominant, or just one of the choices at hand? I absolutely love the VV format personally, but what kind of legs will it have...
The other trend in play is the aesthetics. The first decade or so of digital has seen a lot of interest in "taking off the digital edge" with filters, vintage glass, post software, etc. In narrative work, looking too much like real life may not be desired. That said, the times they are a changin'. Audience expectations are being reconditioned, in part due to modern display tech. Motion smoothing might be an abomination to many of us, but how universal is that reaction - especially for viewers under 30?

Cheers - #19

In the days of film, various forms of 16mm, 35mm, 70mm, etc all co-existed. Maybe that's what we'll see with digital as well. Choosing the acquisition format right for the project.

If motion smoothing becomes the norm, and Star Wars looks like it does playing on TVs at your local Best Buy, then maybe it's time for me to find something else to do. Because up to this point, everything I have seen that is meant to "improve" the smoothness of playback on TVs has made me very ill. But, I'm not 16 and I didn't grow up on 60fps video games, so maybe there is a different aesthetic developing that those of us conditioned on 24fps can't relate to. As long as I can turn that setting off on the TV, I guess I'll survive.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Supers and standards don't cover any of the biggerish formats like 6k dragon, and 5k gemini, I think that has a lot to do with their loss in popularity. And to be honest, I never liked them very much anyway. Back when it was Ziess or cooke, I always preferred cooke, and now that there are so many options, and people have expanded their horizons as far as what lenses should do, I think they are really low on the list of what I would want to shoot. At least for me.

Nick

 

[M Harvey]

I personally like the Super Speeds quite a bit, and the standards are good, too-- not right for every project, but I like a little character. But it feels like a tough time to consider a vintage lens purchase-- they're cheaper than ever, but it feels like the push to larger format is happening fast, at least for some parts of the market. Directors and producers often want the latest thing, even if they don't know why-- like, "that camera or light or gimbal is what we need because that's what "Euphoria" used."
What steps in for Super Speeds on larger formats? I gather the Arri Signatures have some "vintage" characteristics, but they're very expensive and not accessible everywhere. Rehoused Contax/Leica do the trick to some degree. But many of the affordable, built-for-cine options like the Tokinas and Sigmas have that super clean, modern look. So I guess we get more into filtration?

Will also be interesting to see how or if coming waves of cine lenses incorporate autofocus, given the tech in the new Sony and Canon bodies-- and the Komodo. Does AF become an expected feature?

 

[Andrew Reese]

Unfortunately within the next decade I assume we will see AF / FF cine-glass. Technology will replace humans (AC's) eventually. Computers can be made to not make mistakes or at least at a percentage much less than human beings which equivalates to less time and money on set. For instance, look how robotic tracking has become the mainstream in high frame rate motion work which has allowed for shots that were not possible with human operators and in the prosumer market just look at how Canon / Sony AF has progressed over the last decade to the point now it is pretty stinking perfect in most circumstances. I have definitely seen the price come down on S35 vintage glass (i.e. superspeeds / b speeds) and that is definitely because of FF sensors and higher resolution formats. Now with Canon RF mount on Komodo, its only a matter of time until the mainstream will expect AF out of DSMC3 with focus pulling and wireless video transmission with zero latency out of a cell phone or even more so AF with face / eye tracking but out of cinema grade glass with no breathing and par-focal zooms. The technology is already here for sure, it's only a matter of when the industry demands / prefers it and what the price point will be to enter into this new market. I personally love pulling focus and old vintage glass (i.e. Leica-r, FD's, Kowas, Superspeeds, etc.) as I like the feeling of being more in touch with my lenses and image capture and prefer a more organic look compared to modern glass (i.e. Sigma / Zeiss / Canon). But this era of glass is only appreciated and recognized by those who seek it out. Newer generations are lazy to be honest and will want everything as easy, quick, and perfect as possible. Millennial DP's will be much different than the current crowd.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I've sold my set of Super Speeds half a year ago and don't look back. They are, indeed, fine vintage lenses, but they have their flaws. To name a few: below T2.8 they are soft, or to put it bluntly, they are no 4K resolving lenses below T2.8. They have a bluish/cold tint that becomes magenta when flaring. Thus, they don't match well with Cooke or Angenieux, or Canon glass. They render particular flat images and tend to make people look more full, less slim, not to say fatter, I'm talking here the 25mm and 35mm lenses. On the plus side, they are light, small and very well made for their vintage. They show a robust and distinct flare when pointed to a light source; a hot window is sufficient. Skintones render to the colder side, albeit favourably smooth. Focus fall-off is seamless and organic.

If I were in the market for vintage glass, I would go for a Cooke 20-100 or the newer 18-100. Plenty of character, a hell of dimensionality, bokeh with hexagons of fine vintage and flares that are hard to beat because they don't fog the whole picture, what hot windows can do to Super Speeds.

 

[Matt W.]

This thread just reminds me how out of touch I am. To me, b speeds would be a dream. But I think I am part of the older generation.

How old are most people here who are seeing more modern glass on set?

I'm not familiar with what's popular among directors under 30, but in the 30-40 group it seems baltars, super baltars, cooke S3, super speeds, S16, 2 perf film, etc. are all the rage. Even on tentpoles nostalgia seems to be everything, only in another way... Avengers, Twin Peaks, and Star Wars are all about time travel or resurrection and all shot on vintage gear but those are not shot by people I know lol.

The fact that everyone is backwards-looking is itself a bit concerning, but I don't think film is the dominant medium anymore, YouTube and Fortnite are.

That said, I'm excited by the even younger set of directors who rather than looking back at the past are looking into the future? Is it twenty-somethings who are buying/renting all the Sigma/Tokina/Signature primes and shooting 8k instead of Alexa? I never see these lenses on set and none of my friends (in their early thirties to early forties) use them, they are all using S3s, S16, etc. and are more nostalgic in a way. But also part of the vinyl-fetishizing hipster generation I suppose. I worked on one series directed by a twenty-something I think and it was shot 8k red, I think, and had a very clinical look. But among stuff made by the 30-40s group it's all Alexa, S3, S16, 2 perf, etc. so far as I can see.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

There are times when vintage glass is just what you want. If you have reasonably easy access to a decent rental house or two, just rent when needed. Buying a set of Speeds in 2020 seems like a sketchy investment to me. I bought a short set (25,50,85) of Mark 2s in 2008 for my RedOne and loved the look. Used them on a period piece right off the bat and they were ideal. Sold them a couple years later and went to RPPs.
These days, the only set of primes I'd want to own are the Sigma CINEs. The price/performance is excellent, good coverage and their compact size is well suited to the ever shrinking camera bodies. All the lower cost sets have issues I don't care to deal with. Spending more would only make sense if I could keep them rented out consistently, and, IMO, competing with operations like Bob Keslow's is a no-win proposition. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[M Harvey]

How old are most people here who are seeing more modern glass on set?
I'm not familiar with what's popular among directors under 30

I'm in that 30s-40s set myself, Matt. But you're not wrong that there's a big taste for vintage-- the last thing I worked on for a younger director was on Speed Panchros (we were explicitly going for "vintage Hollywood"), and a horror short for 20-somethings a year ago was Alexa with Super Speeds (partially for the nod to 70s/80s horror). I believe that a lot of young filmmakers making music videos and short films like to mix it up with vintage glass, 8mm, 16mm--the works.

But as the larger format sensors come in, I know the kind of producers and directors who are just gonna want it, and that means different glass, too. I worked on something last summer that was Venice with Tokinas and Angenieux EZs. And I'd bet that the producer of the web series I shot last year with Ultra Primes (which I like to think are somehow neutral but not sterile) on Scarlet W and Epic Dragon would now want to do "full frame" if we were starting to plan it today-- it would just feel like a reachable version of the next big thing.

I might be wrong about this, because I'm not a commercial director or producer, but I'd imagine that a lot of those pitch books for ad campaigns for hip brands include a line like "new large format cameras (as seen on big movie/TV show X) immerse the viewer in the world..." next to a medium shot where the character really pops out of the background. (And which could have also been achieved on an 85 on super 35...)