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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ADOBE HAVE DONE IT !!!! REAL TIME R3D editing & grading on a LAPTOP!

Mark Toia said:
I'm now having issues with Premier... !!!!!!

Thought I'd try my luck on a real job with... OMG! KILL ME NOW!

Even though Premier Cs6 has some more than great features. There is something going on in the back end thats really screwing me up at the moment, so much so, that I had to abort and jump back into FCP.
I'm not going to give up just yet on Premier... I really want to make this thing work in the real world. It's got way to many cool things going for it for me to ignore it.... But there a some serious issues in the engine that need sorting out.
If there is a PREMIER engineer lurking through this forum... You need to get under the hood.

PM me, I'm willing to share the problems...
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Mark, are you willing to share here? I've also had numerous problems on a real world job and stopped using Premier all together and back to using FCP & COLOR again---believe me i NEVER wanted to do that...but had to as i could not work with all the problems i faced--much of this i already started POSTS on....
 
Hey all,

Wes Howell from Adobe Systems. I'm the RED workflow guy and I also own an Epic. I've also been editing R3D's in CS6 with great success for the past 3 months.

I'm here to help. Let's not jump to conclusions and let's address any issues one at a time.

Here's an open invite. Anyone with issues or questions - feel free to e-mail me directly at whowell @ adobe

Best,
Wes
 
I'd like to vote for you guys talking in front of the iron curtain. I'm really impressed that an Adobe rep is on the boards helping out like this. The only other company I can think of that's got that good service is, well, Red (and Sound Devices, actually). I'm not having any issues with Premiere yet, but I'm not using it as hard as you Mark, and if I do run into the same issues, it'd be nice to know how to fix them from reading this thread. Even if it turns out that Premiere is broken, I think Adobe's transparency really recommends them. All software breaks from time to time, it's a matter of how you handle it. Thanks for being around, Wes. You confirmed that my decision to switch to Premiere was a good one.
 
Mark Toia said:
Cool Wes,
Ive sent you PM.. Im not giving up yet as yet... I just need to stop these jam ups and codec drop outs.

lets chat behind the iron curtain. I don't want this turning into something ugly online.
Cheers for the support.
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+1 for open discussion on issues.

All software has bugs, and until they fix them, Adobe may be able to suggest workarounds that would benefit us all.

I'm also coming from FCP, so any problems/workarounds would probably be relevant to the very large number of former FCP users.

BTW - you might also try evaluating the product on Win7.

I use both platforms (was originally an Apple developer dating back to the first Macintosh days).

I honestly prefer Win7 and all the great 3rd party add-ons to Apple (still use Logic Pro though). You can build your Windows machine out the way you want and have the latest video cards today instead of xx months/years in the future.
 
joshua csehak said:
I'd like to vote for you guys talking in front of the iron curtain. I'm really impressed that an Adobe rep is on the boards helping out like this. The only other company I can think of that's got that good service is, well, Red (and Sound Devices, actually). I'm not having any issues with Premiere yet, but I'm not using it as hard as you Mark, and if I do run into the same issues, it'd be nice to know how to fix them from reading this thread. Even if it turns out that Premiere is broken, I think Adobe's transparency really recommends them. All software breaks from time to time, it's a matter of how you handle it. Thanks for being around, Wes. You confirmed that my decision to switch to Premiere was a good one.
Click to expand...

Hello all,

Full transparency here for sure. However, working offline to get project specifics, hardware specifics, sometimes footage etc is helpful.

Right now I suspect that the major problem may be related to OpenCL support. This is a new feature for CS6 and we don't control every aspect of this technology. However, rest assured that we are working on it.
I am not seeing performance slowdowns on any of my personal workstations, PC or Mac, nor am I seeing it on my HP Quad Core laptop. I'm definitely not seeing the performance slowdowns within 10-15 minutes of editing as Mark is experiencing. I think this is an isolated case - however we take it very seriously and we're working on it. This will not affect most users. Testing in progress. We appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming.

Wes Howell
Adobe Systems
 
Ok I'll jump in here I'm editing my 1st project on CS6 a paid TVC job shot @ 4k HD for SD TV. I haven't encountered any probs. Just "cut'n'shut" at the moment. I am editing this job on a Mac Pro late 2008 model with nvidia something card (64 bit ) low ram but will be upgrading. I have decided for CC not to use Speed grade as whilst I like the interface & can get things happening it seems a bit of a one way street at the moment. Instead I will try AE for grading using some plug ins as I am already in there effecting. Fall backs I guess would be Speedgrade, Da Vinci or my old friend Color If things go pear shaped.

My question for the users here, where do you start encountering problems in the process? A heads up would be great. thanks

P.S. Great to see Adobe monitoring & participating on this thread.

Update: Apologies I just noticed the title of this thread was for laptops. I will repost this question on the correct thread.
 
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without knowing more, it sounds to me like heat issues. Apple Unibody Laptops will throttle down the GPU once it hits 170-175F. It sounds like he hits this wall, and then the GPU can't keep up because it is getting throttle down by OS X.

Known issue if you have ever tried playing a game on a Macbook Pro
 
Hey Mike,

As an FYI - There are 2 ways to get media into SG. One is to use the Send to Speedgrade feature which "flattens" your frames in PR and sends 10 bit DPX files to SG. This requires some decent disk bandwidth as the DPX files are large. The other technique is to export an EDL from PR. This allows you to import the R3D's with cuts directly into SG (Native R3D support)

As you know, there are many different color workflows and people choose to make color choices at different stages.

So the big question. What would be your ideal "2 way street"? What would be ideal for your workflow? How early do you want to grade your clips? As af final step or as an intermediate step before continued editing in Premiere?

Also, what about transitions? It's common to have to devise workaround or extend handles for color grading workflows. How important is this to you and how would you like this to be handled?

Now is the time for EVERYONE to make their feature requests. RED users are in the minority and honestly the feature requests have been a bit quiet from the RED community. If you want features or improvements to existing CS6 workflows...now is the time to request them. I know I have a few myself :)

Wes
 
Wes Howell said:
Now is the time for EVERYONE to make their feature requests. RED users are in the minority and honestly the feature requests have been a bit quiet from the RED community. If you want features or improvements to existing CS6 workflows...now is the time to request them. I know I have a few myself :)

Wes
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Wes - I'd like several things.

1. A way to apply AE or OFX plug-ins as the first layer or node. The only way we can use something like NeatVideo as the first operation, is to apply it in AE/Premiere and then output DPX that SG can read. We can't send the R3Ds to SG and then apply our effects as the first layer or node in SG.

2. In some perfect world, if SG could act as a layer in AE, we'd be able to do things to the R3D before and after SG operates on it - working the entire time from R3D files.

3. I'd personally like to see a power-user mode with a node interface for SG.

You compete against Resolve that has nodes, and many are used to Nuke/Fusion and other interfaces that are node based. It's like pulling teeth to work in a non-node based interface - and that applies to AE also - AE really needs nodes. There's zero downside to having nodes available, but a lot of downside to not having nodes at all.

BTW - very glad to see your interest here - even if RED users may be a minority of CS6 owners. If Apple had had the same interest in their user's needs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Of course, there's a certain cache in saying Fincher's Dragon Tattoo was stabilized in AE, and if you court RED users and make it easy to use R3Ds in AE/Premiere/SG, it certainly can't hurt your reputation as so many of the big movies use RED.

Many purchases are made on perception.
 
Matthew Riggieri said:
without knowing more, it sounds to me like heat issues. Apple Unibody Laptops will throttle down the GPU once it hits 170-175F. It sounds like he hits this wall, and then the GPU can't keep up because it is getting throttle down by OS X.

Known issue if you have ever tried playing a game on a Macbook Pro
Click to expand...

I have a funny feeling your onto something there... but when editing in FCP.. no probe at all with the same footage...
Im sure ADOBE are going to solve this.

All i can say is, if APPLE CAN DO IT, they can...

PS. Background support from ADOBE has been amazing. I have had long phone conversations with a couple of ADOBE guys very very interested in solving problems. I'm impressed.
They couldn't fix mine.. but they will.
 
Mark Toia said:
I have a funny feeling your onto something there... but when editing in FCP.. no probe at all with the same footage...
Im sure ADOBE are going to solve this.

All i can say is, if APPLE CAN DO IT, they can...

PS. Background support from ADOBE has been amazing. I have had long phone conversations with a couple of ADOBE guys very very interested in solving problems. I'm impressed.
They couldn't fix mine.. but they will.
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FCP isn't stressing the cores or GPU nearly as much (translate that as fully utilizing them).

Look in Apple's process monitor (I forget what it's called, as my Mac isn't up right now) and compare cpu utilization.

There are tools for GPU utilization also, depending on your GPU - I"m sure someone else will chime in.
 
@ Wes

My comments regard Speed grade at the moment, as it is still very early days for me with CS6. Some jobs can afford a pro colorist others can't. I guess the work flow below is for the can'ts.

Currently Speed grade appears designed to be used at the end of the post pipe..the last stage before final. Maybe fine for some but not me. Working with agencies & the like this is not an option for client work as they want to see what they're getting throughout the process & not at the end .

Hence like Les, I dream of Speed Grade residing in Premier or AE. Where we can get preliminary grading done, sort out what we need & what we don't , move onto effect work, than fine tune, then fine grade tweeking of the images. Presently this workflow cannot happen on Speed grade (it appears to me). Maybe if we knew where the renders reside & if they can be updated or just relink the the updated media to AE & Premier would be great as a workaround at the moment.

What I really need & I suspect others as well, is a process where we can grade during rough cut & then continually refine or update the grading process by bouncing around with the different adobe platforms whilst not losing filters & attributes from the previous platforms. I guess you could call it a process of continual updating. For example rough grade during preliminary cut with Premier then move over to AE for effecting, decide present grade on an effect scene is to cool, regrade shot with SP within AE. Happy with AE move back to Premier for agency politics if font should be Helvetica Neu or Verdana, tweek to desired/ undesired art direction move the logo 6 pixels to the right then decide it was better where it was. Then fine grade with secondaries before going final & out. Hence my reference to a 2 way street with data flowing in both directions. Personally I also believe, like offline/online, the days of round tripping are drawing to a close.

I'm sure others can put or have put it better than me & I'll leave the technical stuff to others, but that's my 2 cents for now ; )
 
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Thanks Mike,

we hear you loud and clear.

Lin
 
Mike Garrick said:
@ Wes,

Some jobs can afford a pro colorist others can't. I guess the work flow below is for the can'ts.

Currently Speed grade appears designed to be used at the end of the post pipe..the last stage before final. Maybe fine for some but not me. Working with agencies & the like this is not an option for client work as they want to see what they're getting throughout the process & not at the end .

What I really need & I suspect others as well, is a process where we can grade during rough cut & then continually refine or update the grading process by bouncing around with the different adobe platforms whilst not losing filters & attributes from the previous platforms. I guess you could call it a process of continual updating. For example rough grade during preliminary cut with Premier then move over to AE for effecting, decide present grade on an effect scene is to cool, regrade shot with SP within AE. Happy with AE move back to Premier for agency politics if font should be Helvetica Neu or Verdana, tweek to desired/ undesired art direction move the logo 6 pixels to the right then decide it was better where it was. Then fine grade with secondaries before going final & out. Hence my reference to a 2 way street with data flowing in both directions. Personally I also believe, like offline/online, the days of round tripping are drawing to a close.
Click to expand...

This please. If Speed Grade could act almost more as an effect on a layer then a "Stop, export, import, grade, render, reconform *oh wait you wanted changes, repeat steps 1-6*" Especially for those of us who are doing a lot in one box this would be wonderful.
 
HMM its a double edged sword. I tried speedgrade before Adobe bought it. it was a solid Application then, albeit the learning curve was somewhat steep. Speed grade has to be a standalone application . It works wonders with Red and other Raw footage stand alone.
Because of all the ther features available in PPro, AE, Lightroom and PS, Speedgrade feels very crippled. I have yet to successfully load an EDL into Speedgrade without an error message. I've given up. on other threads my request for decent features in speedgrade will hopefully be taken into account. I personally have a strong feeling this is not speedgrade NX Api, but rather the new lumetri which still being developed.

Adobe is much becoming one of those companies forcing you to use a program you might have no need for. What do i mean here. AE is great but it a specialized program, 70% of editors out there want to get into their NLE and Finnish in their NLE, so features like text, color correction and grading, stabilizing, keying, simple tracking, simple composting, scopes, simple masking, robust media management and archiving, monitoring, Sound mixing, and Audio timecode sync should be built in. Products like AE with dynamic link are highly specialized and jobs with no major effects needs have to sent to Ae for simple effects.
lets backtrack,

Since CS4 it has taken adobe a solid five years to implement these very basic things that have existed in FCP time in memorial. Why do you think folks are clinging to FCP and wont let go no matter what? Fast forward CS5, blazing fast editing speed with the mercury playback engine, an uncompressed 32 bit floating engine, accelerated 32bit effects and full support for R3D. Problem is Cs5 was temperamental, 3rd party plugins were not accelerated, the color correction tools and scopes were not really 32bit or even 16bit plus they were extremely clunky, the accelerated ultra keyer is 8 bit, . Hello CS6! how are you?
Well, new color correction tool interface, but still no 32 bit scopes or cc engine, still no acceleration in 3rd party effects, still no basic, tracking, still no media management, till no basic masking, still temperamental.

Why cant Adobe have integrated an accelerated speedgrade lite in premiere and After effects? its basic common sense if you want people to fall in love with your new grading application let them use part of it right in their NLE. with one click switch to the CC Workspace, boom SG lite opens up right in ppro. Color correction, masking, tracking, all with mercury playback engine. We could edit, warp stabilize our footage, reduce noise, add simple text, transitions, clean up and sync audio and monitor all in real-time with the Mercury playback engine for simple client supervised edits. For more complex projects all the various specialized apps become necessary.

I have looked at many forums, my list covers every Premiere Pro users request. Real simple.

I love adobe and continue to use PPro, and Audition every day, now mostly for edits only. I have to rely on Smoke, Resolve, and honestly now use the dreaded FCPX for a host of things including real time Redgiant Looks playback. SERIOUSLY>
 
Is this really too much to ask?

Is this really too much to ask?

Whether it be layers or nodes, it's about time that grading gets more neatly integrated into the editorial process. While the nuances and requirements of first rate color grading may remain a highly specialized craft, integration into the pipeline needs to move beyond the dark ages. CMX 3600 EDLs in 2012, really?

I also agree that one of the real draws of FCP was how many things you could do without leaving it. I figured out how to do 98% of what I used to do in AE right in the motion tab in FCP. Great timesaver and as others have noted, made changes much simpler. It always made sense to me that I could select any element from the timeline, click on a tab and see it's properties, then alter them as desired. The 3-way color corrector filter in FCP was limited in scope, but it sure was easy to manage...

NLE as the core app with specialty apps running "on board" as plug ins/filters/nodes sure seems like the holy grail. When you need to send a cut out for a grading session, what if the NLE project files could be sent out to Baselight, Scratch, Resolve, etc with all parameters included, then round tripped back to editorial with only the image metrics altered? Forget XML, ALE and the rest of the alphabet soup: if you want to sell a color grading solution in 2012 and beyond it needs to be able to take a project file from Adobe, AVID, Apple, etc and just work.

Cheers - #19
 
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