A Response To Jim Jannard and 1080P

[Gunleik Groven]

I think what Mark is talking about is using the file as a pure data container, not unlike what S.two does in rewrapping Arri RAW files in DPX "containers." I'm not so sure I agree with that concept, as I think theres a lot to be said for keeping a single image file as an image file and not confusing either the user or the software as to what is and what isn't RGB image data. It is technically feasible, but I would resurrect my oft stated mantra on this one: just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Trying to do too much in one file is a sure ticket to unacceptance, especially when what you're doing is non-standard.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Just using the holliday to think about usages for EXR...

Weirdo... (That one's for me at 7.20 am in the hollidayseason...)

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Do you know of any method other than command line tools for actually creating multilayer OpenEXR files with the differing types of data - along with metadata - you're describing? Does Clipster actually do that? Not that I have anything against command line (it's actually my first choice in many, if not most, cases), but I'm trying to shortcut questions that others will likely ask...

Are there no GUI tools in the User space for this?

 

[M Most]

Are there no GUI tools in the User space for this?

Well, in theory, you could use Photoshop, but that would be rather slow and painful with 175,000 frames to process and multiple layers.

Most current EXR support is built into things like CG renderers and compositing software, because that's not only what it's best suited for, it's what it was designed for by ILM. It allows for multiple passes to be self contained for easier and more effective transport to compositing, including layers such as a normals layer to allow some degree of 3D relighting in a 2D environment, a very efficient way to work. It also, of course, allows for high dynamic range, allowing compositing to work in a true linear light space and take advantage of real world lighting characteristics when doing things like add and multiply operations. What Mark is talking about is two things: first, using it as a multilayer container for archiving purposes, and second, storing something other than an RGB image in one of those layers. The first is a clever repurposing of the format with some real potential benefit. The second, to me, is probably more of a misuse of it, in which I can see Mark's point even though I'm not at all sure I agree with it.

 

[I Bloom]

convinced. skip the pro res module, no need to invent something to be compatible with something ready to die

A 1080p module that allows recording of ProRes and 5K Raw at the same time is a very important tool and essentially satisfies the needs of both sides of the 1080p/4K debate. Looking forward to purchasing the module.

IBloom

 

[M Most]

A 1080p module that allows recording of ProRes and 5K Raw at the same time is a very important tool and essentially satisfies the needs of both sides of the 1080p/4K debate. Looking forward to purchasing the module.

www.aja.com.

Or, if you're dealing with "another" format, www.convergent-design.com.

Of course, things like a common stop/start and time code might come into play, depending on what Red is enabling on the SDI output. And file naming conventions would need to be developed and adhered to. And your backup/data handling requirements will increase, possibly substantially. All of which (other than the data handling) is solved by an integrated solution.

 

[I Bloom]

www.aja.com.

Or, if you're dealing with "another" format, www.convergent-design.com.

Of course, things like a common stop/start and time code might come into play, depending on what Red is enabling on the SDI output. And file naming conventions would need to be developed and adhered to. And your backup/data handling requirements will increase, possibly substantially. All of which (other than the data handling) is solved by an integrated solution.

I think a module that can create frame to frame matched Prores footage with corresponding filenames and metadata will be important and helpful. (If that codec can be recorded to the same media as the Raw that would be huge.) If it's something that Red can do easily on there own or in collaboration with a company will be a substantially better solution.

Wiring external boxes to a camera has an important effect on the actual work you can get done with the camera on set. An integrated module, much less so.

IBloom

 

[Matt Fleming]

If it's relevant to this discussion, and for those not aware, file size on EXR files can be very large. I.E a 5120 X 2560 32 bit float with no compression and no extra channels of data can be over 200 megs a frame.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

If it's relevant to this discussion, and for those not aware, file size on EXR files can be very large. I.E a 5120 X 2560 32 bit float with no compression and no extra channels of data can be over 200 megs a frame.

Yup it's quite fun, comming from RED RAW...

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

second, storing something other than an RGB image in one of those layers. The first is a clever repurposing of the format with some real potential benefit. The second, to me, is probably more of a misuse of it, in which I can see Mark's point even though I'm not at all sure I agree with it.

I only said 'COULD" - didn't say I wanted too. It's just something I've thought about before. Specifically with respect to handing VFX shots back and forth. Anyway, I think the concept will cause more grief than good - so - no worries - I won't be pushing for it.

Now that we can trim R3Ds with ease it makes several things much more efficient.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

If it's relevant to this discussion, and for those not aware, file size on EXR files can be very large. I.E a 5120 X 2560 32 bit float with no compression and no extra channels of data can be over 200 megs a frame.

Yup.

And that's why it fits as a ARCHIVAL format. Not a delivery format.

 

[Michael Shilnov]

There is nothing strange about the HD technology being there in the late 80's and taking almost two decades to make it through to the consumer. Think Blu Ray, it has been out for almost a decade but only in recent years did it force SD DVDs off the shelves, at least in the US (Europe is still to a large extent in the DVD realm). The secret here is not the technology or consumer habits, it is in the way the entertaiment industry works and the way media giants make their money - they fight, merge, form alliances and finally invest into a technology (e.g. the DVD) that they expect to bring back billions over billions of profit, reserving their right to do just about anything to "protect their interest". If you were the only one in town selling oranges, would you rather sell them all first or start offering a much better product once your supplier announced he now has oranges that are twice as cheap and twice as good? Of course, you might just do the latter if the client means to you more, than just the money, but that is often not the case. Another reason to praise RED for not being (or becoming affiliated in any way) part of the sony-panny gang. Then, I think if RED started manufacturing 4K screens at a relevant pricepoint (say, sub-10K) in the near future it would deliver another blast to the entertaiment industry, the media giants might be expecting the revenue from their multiple generations of 1080 flatscreens for another while.

 

[M Most]

Yup.

And that's why it fits as a ARCHIVAL format. Not a delivery format.

It's also why the ACES effort is centered around a "cut down" version of Open EXR, albeit one that is part of ILM's specification. The version being proposed as the ACES container is single layer, no compression, half float, with essential metadata and a few other fields as needed. It is designed specifically to allow real time playback, which has already been demonstrated with ILM's own tools.

All the flavor, half the calories. :cheers2:

 

[Stacey Spears]

Think Blu Ray, it has been out for almost a decade but only in recent years did it force SD DVDs off the shelves

Blu-ray launched in 2007, 10 years after DVD. It launched prematurely because of pressure from HD DVD, which also launched in 2006.

For the record, Blu-ray's average bitrate is around 20 Mbps, not 30 Mbps. Batman Begins was encoded at 13 Mbps for Blu-ray. Its visually transparent to the D5 that was used as the source.

As far as streaming services, Xbox Live (Zune Marketplace), and Vudu, are the only services currently streaming at 1080p. Netflix has been streaming at 720p. Netflix announced 1080i streaming, which seems odd. If you want to see the best 1080p streaming, take a look at Xbox Live. The bitrate can vary between 6 and 10 Mbps for 1080p. If you are on Comcast, you will have no problem getting 10 Mbps. As I posted once before, the only way to watch current Fox and ABC programming in 1080p is via Xbox Live. It’s only available 720p from other providers, including OTA, Cable, and Sat.

Having worked closely with many studios, though HD DVD and Blu-ray, I can tell you they strongly believe that the higher resolution of Blu-ray is not why customers buy it over DVD. Again, THEY believe. They are convinced that it is the advanced interactivity that will sell more discs. One more time, THEY believe, not me.

I have also seen the roadmap for at least one display company. They may dip their toes in the 4k/5k market in late 2012 / early 2013. One manufacturer was hoping to launch an affordable 4k front projector ($30k price point) this year, but some of their key suppliers went out of business, so it has been postponed. Their current 4k is >$150k.

I am all for 4k in the home. I am sure I will be the first on the block to buy it, but a new standard, with studio supports, takes a while.

On the video side, studios like to use technology based on open standards. It took a few years for VC-1 to go through the process of becoming an open standard and that was fast tracked. The industry is busy working on H265, which is targeting 2x increase in coding efficiency at 1/2 the complexity of H264. For REDRAY to become fully adopted, it may have to go through a similar process. Once you open up, people crawl out from under rocks with their patents claiming ownership.

There are many who believe streaming is the future. Personally I like packaged media. Blu-ray is hand tweaked unlike a streaming service, which is often never hand touched.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

Having worked closely with many studios, though HD DVD and Blu-ray, I can tell you they strongly believe that the higher resolution of Blu-ray is not why customers buy it over DVD. Again, THEY believe. They are convinced that it is the advanced interactivity that will sell more discs. One more time, THEY believe, not me.

HUH??

"Hey, check out my new Blu-ray player, the menu sets are AWESOME!"

I know plenty of people who barely understand what a pixel is who want blu-ray because it "looks better". We have been taught by ad after ad that HD is desirable because of the image quality. These people ought to pay attention to their own marketing.

 

[Stacey Spears]

"Hey, check out my new Blu-ray player, the menu sets are AWESOME!"

You have no idea! Disney spends crazy amounts of money on the BD-J games that no one plays.

I was actually told once that I was not their target market because I was interested in the image quality, not the interactivity.

 

[Stuart English]

Blu-ray

Blu-ray

I think we should take the last 3 posts over to the Blue-ray / REDRAY thread....

 

[Palmer Woodrow]

Blu-Ray was obsolete when it finally hit the market. While I condemn Apple's hypocrisy in coming out in favor of Blu-Ray and then utterly refusing to support it, Jobs's evaluation of it as a "bag of hurt" is based in fact. What a mess of an authoring spec.

As usual, quality takes a back seat to a corporate effort to spam the living crap out of the customer. Blu-Ray's "interactive" features are nothing more than a way to shove advertising down your throat. How ignorant do you have to be to launch CD-I again?

 

[Michael Shilnov]

Stacey, the Blu Ray was commercially availiable in 2003 in Japan, while the first BD-players in the US started shipping in 2006.

And as for the streming part, google's 1gb fibre broadband services could change the rules of the game in an instant. can anyone here do the math? Even somethinkg like a h.265 4k stream would be nothing short of stunning. It will be much closer to the way human vision traces objects, although there are no accurate tools to measure this, of course, I think I saw a study somewhere with the two compared and.... People here have expressed the opinion that conventional TV will vanish sooner or later and broadband streaming (with all the possibilities this opens) is the future, I think I have to agree.

As for advanced interactivity. Advanced interactivity? Put a flatscreen with a typical Blu Ray menu open and an iPad side by side, I think the winner in terms of interactivity is obvious. I think people buy Blu Rays because they are on the shelves and they know its all "HD" and "compatible" and it is better then what they had before. Tell them that 4K at a certain distance is the first to rival the eye's natural resolving abilities, set up showrooms at every other Best Buy and you could have an angry mob next morning demanding their 4K screens. But then, of course, the industry works in its own way.

And another thing, I was very disappointed when Blu Rays went mpeg (then avc), in my opinion it would have been wiser to work out a codec with less compression rather than squeezing in all that extra material. Afterall, most people usually leave the theatre, switch the chanel or eject the disc (or go off to make some coffee) after the credits start rolling and if they do feel like they need to satisfy their curiousity further they google the movie.

And yes, +150K 4K display, you said it yourself ))

 

[Stacey Spears]

I think we should take the last 3 posts over to the Blue-ray / REDRAY thread....

Sorry, all of the threads are starting to blend together. Please move the posts, including this one, to the appropriate thread.

Stacey, the Blu Ray was commercially available in 2003 in Japan, while the first BD-players in the US started shipping in 2006.

The original Blu-ray that launched in Japan is not compatible with the current Blu-ray standard. i.e. it was 1080i MPEG-2 only and does not support BD-J, AACS, or BD+.

I will edit my post from 2007 to 2006. It's been a while.

Sadly most people have not seen how good Blu-ray can look. If you have only seen Blu-ray on a flat panel (Plasma or LCD) then you have not seen Blu-ray. I would go a step further that unless you have seen it on a front projection DLP you have not seen it. PHL demos Blu-ray on their 40' screen compared to the source and its transparent.

SD display technology had trouble meeting system standards. Moving to 1080p did not solve the problem. Most HD displays still don't meet system standards. The same problem will exist as we move to a higher resolution. Simply having NxN addressable pixels does not mean great quality. The same problems that exist today will exist with higher resolution displays.

Just so we are clear, I am in no way saying Blu-ray is all we need. I am very much looking forward to REDRAY. I am hoping to include a REDRAY disc with my 3D test / calibration BD next year, assuming consumer REDRAY is out by then.

 

[Antony M]

1080p vs 4K delivery?

You guys are funny with all your arguments.

The format I deliver all my lovely Red footage in is... PAL on DVD.

Really.

And despite having a 50" HD TV and BluRay player, almost everything I watch is 720x576 or lower (I only own 2 BluRays).

I love filming with my Red (and in a few months look forward to using my Epic), but I would be willing to make a very large cash bet that we will not have 4k TV in the UK in the next 10 years. Anyone care to take me up on this bet?