7d grabs

[morgan_moore]

I have only shot a bit with the 7d

It is my impression that no part of the frame is sharp ever,

With other imaging systems one gets a situation where sharpness out does resolution, not here IMO

http://www.halfinchrails.com/hir/pics/7dgrabs/7dGrabs.html

Im looking for the plane of focus and cant find it

Im sure the 5d was not like this, the Red Reel is sharp even at low res, I do feel my EX1 is wooly like this

Maybe some visitors who are used to looking at proper footage would care to comment

There is no science behind these tests, but some where locked off and magnigfied to test focus befroe shooting

Workflow..

h264, mpegStreamclip, AIC, FCP 1080Timeline, Export 1080 QT video H264, export to still image sequence, post some of those images

here is http://www.vimeo.com/7187136 the footage

rock on scarlet ?

S

SMM

 

[David Rasberry]

Looks like back focus is a little off on your 7D. Was this shot with auto focus? Does the 7D have a means of correcting auto focus adjustment?

 

[Jim Retar]

What lenses were you using? The stock lens is gonna be pretty soft compared to a high quality prime.

I haven't tried the 7D, but get much sharper footage from the 5D with good primes.

 

[morgan_moore]

Focussed by viewing the screen, what you see is what you get - as I said some are static shots checked with 10X zoom, locked on sticks (the give way and the 40 sign)

no backfocus issues - am using eye on screen to focus , not numbers on the lens - they never work (with SLR lenses)

manual focus

Im using 70-200 F4 canon prime and 16-55 tokina (!)

I have tried the 50 1.4 nikkor too

Yes I had a 5d and my footage seemed far better - my point entirely

Either, the camera is duff, all of them

or my camera is duff

or the codec just falls apart as soon as it is given something to do , some of these shots are from moving sequences (like the roundabout shot)

I promise I know what Im doing and the lenses areof a quality that while not top end would be fine on anything but pixel peeping 18mp stills

It is wooly in my opinion - I take it you both agree

S

 

[Matthew Bennett]

Searching for sharpness on the 7D is a bit of a 'blood from a stone' situation....

Granted your grabs were a tad soft for 7D, but generally it's going to always be a bit fuzzed.

The 7D is good for a lot of applications, but creating images whose only value is 'sharpness' will just never happen.

 

[morgan_moore]

Surely something has to be sharp in an image ?

I can handle a low resolution camera, Im after 1080max but one is looking to outresolve the the digital resolution with physical resolution

I can handle Moiree - even my hasselblad moirees when the fabric frequency = the pixel pitch

this camera needs to be downressez to about 200px high before the image resolution is destroyed by the pixel resolution IMO

this looks like Ive got a sock over the lens IMO

Ive done loads of other footage, sticks, nikkor primes, no backlight, even a locked off still life lit with kinos,

maybe its mpgstreamclip - im trying compressor - but my workflow is the same as my 5d, my lenses the same etc

see also.. http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6493

and

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6355

others seem to agree

My agenda ?

Im excited by the small form of DSLRs, and want a camera that is commercially acceptable to at least 720 (I can live with issues) - but Im not convinced that this is it, but may have unreasonable expectations being that I come from a stills raw shooting background - Im used to pixel peeping 22mp filter free files from my hassy

S

 

[Pierre T.]

"Backfocus" and similar concepts do not apply to the video function, since focussing is done on the image from the sensor.

It is sure very difficult to focus video unless you have an HD monitor attached to the camera (or you have the time to use the zoom preview). But I sometimes have the impression that the 7D image is much, much noisier than the 5D image or that more artifacts as a mixture of noise reduction and codec yield a painting like effect on the details.

 

[Jim Retar]

it's a shame the zoom function doesn't goto a 1:1 ratio.... then we could get pin sharp images.

btw - what sharpness levels have you set in camera.... I go with the lowest shaprness in camera and shapren in post with the 5D.... but maybe the 7D needs an in camera boost?

 

[morgan_moore]

"it's a shame the zoom function doesn't goto a 1:1 ratio"

I think 10X is pretty good enough to aquire focus on a static subject, decent monitoring is another thread (possibly not for RedUser)

Imo this is relevant to Red User because persons such as myself need to see this stuff in comparision to Red, - Im selling myself a Scarlet here

----

I use neutral which I think is 0 for all settings

I have been considering the merits of getting the AA filter ripped out, surely it is deisgned at the phase of 18mp and therefore innapropriate for motion capture

both of my sharp cameras Kodak SLRn and Hassy22mp have no AA filter which IMO yealds good advantage when not shooting fabric

S

 

[Eddy Robinson]

I like your shots very much (in terms of composition, color and so on); sorry to hear you are dissatisfied with the sharpness. I think you've seen Bary Green's threat on DVXuser with res charts etc, it is just not that sharp for video, resolving about 540 lines before aliasing begins to undermine the image. Frankly I think these shots look pretty good.

For some context, I went to movies over the weekend and chose 'Law Abiding Citizen', a thriller about a serial killer with a revenge motive. I liked the look I had seen in the trailers and wanted to see a regular thriller, after watching a lot of science-fiction this summer.

Well, I was a bit disappointed as the movie is not really much good, story-wise (it felt like a big-budget 'Law and Order' episode and the plot became pretty ridiculous). But I did like the cinematography, so even though I was rather bored with the story I used the time to study the image and the lighting. I had chosen a seat near the front partly to peep the difference between the pre-show HD material and the 35mm projection.

You know what? it wasn't that sharp. Every time Jamie Foxx popped up on screen I'd be looking at the reflections in his eyeball and they were always blurry. His skin looked soft, as did his little goatee ((grown between act 1 and 2 to show that 10 years have passed). After a while I found myself watching film grain on the bokeh shots (yes, I was bored). It was shot by Jonathon Sela on Panavision gear, so neither equipment nor talent were to blame. Might have been diffusion filters in front of the lens, or maybe some softening in post, I don't know.

Anyway, the experience reminded that what we look for on a monitor is not always what works best on the screen.

 

[morgan_moore]

Thanks for the compliments, they are just tests in and around my office on a farm

Indeed, I have some DVDs that are not that sharp (blood diamond) but still an engaging watch on my computer monitor

I have been mulling that conundrum that content is king and this and my ex1 are good for aquiring content with minimal fuss

The 5d I think is better than both cameras but the workflow is not very cost effective in terms of me having a life

(I think I would go for 30/25 for mild slo action mixed with compressored 25p for dialogue and 25p steadicam on the EX1 (my reel opens with 30/25 on the steadicam))

I think this camera is what it is and we will see if Scarlet can bring something that is reasonably cost effective and actually delivered in Q1/2 2010

One problem with this (7d) is pulling focus - with the 5d your really know when you are in the right place I try to pull using intuition while operating

There is great temptation to render obsalesence obsolete and also render shooting obsolete footage obsolete

S

 

[Bryce O]

I was doing some green screening with a 5D and 7D last night and they were almost identical. 5D had a stop or two of range on the 7D, but they were still very similar images. In general, you need to be more controlled when shooting with the 7D, you can't just pull it out and shoot around your house and expect to get results like Bloom or any of those guys. Allot of the great looking 7D samples are shot in optimal times of the day or under controlled lighting situations. The 7D will look like garbage if the lighting conditions aren't right... the 5D is more forgiving in this sense. But, obviously, any camera will look like a** if you're shooting handheld "test shots" in your bedroom with nothing but a desk lamp. Clips like this are littered all over the web. I've even seen some Red One "test shots" that make it look like a Walmart handycam.

A tip with the 7D, though, is to turn down all the color settings shoot as flat as possible. The stock color settings are horrible. It's looks much better when converted to prores and saturated (if desired) in post.

 

[Emiel Labree]

I just bought a 7D a week ago. Already own a Canon XH-A1 and am not excited when i do random grabs from footage from that camera. Did a few simple tests and do see less sharpness (and i would guess resolution) compared to the XH-A1, but with a little sharpening i am more then happy. Also blows out much later and nicer. Even the aliasing is not much of a problem. I notice it on the 7D's LCD but not on my computer when reviewing the material. Or after rescaling to 720p. I use a WD player on my TV (standard video) and it had problems with the native files. No sound and the material looks horrible (aliasing and something like edge sharpening - not playing back properly). But after rendering it to something like WMV 720 25p, it's fine.

It's something too keep me busy while i wait for Scarlet...

 

[morgan_moore]

I was doing some green screening with a 5D and 7D last night and they were almost identical. 5D had a stop or two of range on the 7D, but they were still very similar images. In general, you need to be more controlled when shooting with the 7D, you can't just pull it out and shoot around your house and expect to get results like Bloom or any of those guys. Allot of the great looking 7D samples are shot in optimal times of the day or under controlled lighting situations. The 7D will look like garbage if the lighting conditions aren't right... the 5D is more forgiving in this sense. But, obviously, any camera will look like a** if you're shooting handheld "test shots" in your bedroom with nothing but a desk lamp. Clips like this are littered all over the web. I've even seen some Red One "test shots" that make it look like a Walmart handycam.

A tip with the 7D, though, is to turn down all the color settings shoot as flat as possible. The stock color settings are horrible. It's looks much better when converted to prores and saturated (if desired) in post.

]

Nice

Read the thread 0000 settings, some daylight 100 ISO moving to night at higher ISOs for evaluation - thats testing for you

Sticks where appropriate

Lets see your side to sides then proving that the 7d is sharp as the 5d

You shot with them both last night after all

-----

On lighting there is another chat to be had, it is my intention to use a VDSLR with minimal crew and lighting, because it has good, DR, Good lowlight, and is light to move and rig - it should be possible with intelligence

If a VDSLR requires heaps of light then you are going to be spending heaps of money, and once you are spending heaps of money you might as well rent a red and at that point owning a VDSLR is pointless

I agree that I see shooting VDSLR videos where one hire's Charles Papert or shoot from a head worth twice the camera etc as a little bit of a lie about what will typically be acheived, Blooms efforts are at the other end of the spectrum (dublins people)

S

 

[Bryce O]

Images:
1. 5D
2. 7D
3. 5D
4. 7D
5. 7D

BTW, How do you get better quality from stills uploads? The forum manager keeps re-compressing them.

 

[morgan_moore]

the 5 looks sharper to me even at this size - more bite/gradient whatever


S

 

[Bryce O]

the 5 looks sharper to me even at this size - more bite/gradient whatever

S

True... the 5D is obviously FF and significantly larger so it will pick up more detail, even if the pixles are being binned... they are still binned from a 21mp sensor. The 7D is a bit softer, but not disappointingly softer, IMO.

 

[morgan_moore]

I dunno I really need to get my 5d back and do a proper side to side

Of course 30p/60th is sharper as a still than 25/50th too (if there is motion)

bottom line - more pratice with the 7 may be required, I liked my 5 after 10 mins, never liked my Ex1 yet but have not gone deep into sorting its look or working out how to lock WB, another great VDSLR point - easy control

bottom line - none look like the RED reel but that stuff is mainly lit and lit well

S

 

[Bryce O]

bottom line - none look like the RED reel but that stuff is mainly lit and lit well

S

The Red Reel was amazing... I hope the Scarlet reel will be similar. :yesnod:

 

[Charles Angus]

Interesting thread...

Just threw the test clips the OP put up into Shake and resized to 720. Looks like somewhere in the 720p range of resolution there. The shots of the woman are misfocused and motion blurred, so there is obviously nowhere near 720 lines in those shots.

If you were shooting with 180° shutter, be prepared for lots of motion blur - 1/24th second is too slow to pull a good still of people.