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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

6k Mag Weapon vs. 6k Epic Dragon

Jarek Zabczynski

Jarek Zabczynski

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So, I've been debating the Weapon upgrade on my Dragon. Just trying to get to the bottom of what we're getting and paying for, feature wise. Even with our additional $5,000 credit, it's still a pretty hefty chunk of change at $14,000 to upgrade.

Main changes I see…

Lighter Mag body
Slightly better low light handling
Newer body style with better expandability

Am I missing something? Epic to Dragon was a pretty big upgrade, I guess I'm just not seeing a big difference here. Not knocking it, just trying to understand it better.
From what I know we aren't getting any huge framerate or compression improvements.
 
The biggest thing about Weapon is that it's a much better camera for feature film work. The ProRes offline files, the lighter and better managed body and I would persume increased reliability.
Not everything is about higher resolution or sensor tech, just look at the Canon 1D which is sensor tech-wise not so different from the cheaper consumer models, but the built quality in the 1D far surpass most cameras in handling and reliability, which is why it cost a lot more than a consumer camera with the same sensor.
 
Here's what I saw at NAB 2015 and some things we've seen since:


General RED Weapon Features and Improvements:

- Magnesium and Carbon Fiber Weapons = Reduced Body Weight (MG = 3.35lbs, CF = 3.27lbs, Epic Dragon = 5lbs, Epic Carbon Dragon = 4lbs)
- Improved internal data bandwidth (Epic/Scarlet is 200MB/s , Weapon MG is 225MB/s, Weapon Carbon is 300MB/s)
- Simultaneous R3D and Apple Prores recording in-camera to the same media.
- Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode (easier workflow than external recorder)
- Apple ProRes 4444XQ, 4444, 422HQ, 422 or 422LT
- As well as tethered streaming ProRes - ProRes recorded proxy can be sent to Ethernet, while R3D master sent to media
- 1D and 3D LUT Suppport
- Faster Data throughput. Up to 50% higher data rates to card. Existing RED MINI-MAG 512GB cards are already ready for transfer speed increase.
- Dual monitor ports on Brain for EVF/LCDs supporting "cablelesss bolt on" or cabled rigging.
- "Auto User Black Shade Calibration" Select exposure times from 1/8000s to 1/8s without calibrating. Wider operating band for sensor temperature.
- Better thermal management. No Front Fans. Newly Design Top Fan and Rear Ventilation. This means a quieter camera with more stable operation temperatures.
- Integrated Top Plate
- Integrated wireless control connectivity (WiFi)
- Interchangeable and removable I/O options with accessible port placement.
- Interchangeable OLPFs with smart detection of which OLPF is installed.
- Monitor flip and mirror on all outputs, including SDI.
- Integrated dual digital front microphones
- Easier Access Back Focus Adjustment
- Approximately 1/2 stop more captured Dynamic Range in the shadows.
- New OLPF/Image Processsing improvements handle internal reflections (Highlight Orbs/CMOS Smearing)


I can think of a few other things that can happen just based on the improved processing power in the camera brain, but nothing outside of this is "known" yet.
 
Phil Holland said:
Here's what I saw at NAB 2015 and some things we've seen since:
General RED Weapon Features and Improvements:
..
- Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode (easier workflow than external recorder)
...
Click to expand...
I'm in the processing of updating my entire timecode system/network, I'm hoping i don't need to put lockit type boxes on the weapon brain ... is that what this means?
I'd also like to understand anything to do with the network changes for weapon, especially metadata entry. To me the big thing for weapon is using it more integrally with the entire production system (i.e. prores is just an example of changing the camera into a processing brain).

I'm also wondering what would be the most compatible way for me to go for buying my new timecode systems for production (two camera feature film), since I'm assuming it will take awhile for all these updates to be fully tested with weapon.
 
It's a bit too soon to truly tell Patrick, but it does seem that RED's design intentions with Weapon are to save time on set both for general production workflow and rigging. I'm hoping similar things.

As for compatibility as of this second, also unknown, but likely everything Epic and Scarlet can jam to today will work. Until there's more Weapons out there it's hard to tell. First fully fledged production models are still on track I believe for July.
 
Phil Holland said:
Here's what I saw at NAB 2015 and some things we've seen since:


General RED Weapon Features and Improvements:
[...]
- Simultaneous R3D and Apple Prores recording in-camera to the same media.
- Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode (easier workflow than external recorder)
- As well as tethered streaming ProRes - ProRes recorded proxy can be sent to Ethernet, while R3D master sent to media
[...]
Click to expand...

What I take this to mean is that if you enable ProRes proxy recording, whether to the internal media or out the network port, the ProRes clip will be named and timestamped perfectly consistently with the R3D clip, making it trivial to switch from proxy to full res in all popular NLEs. Today, we can use external recorders (such as BMD HyperDeck Shuttle, Atomos Shogun, etc) to record ProRes with more or fewer bells and whistles. But these files are not perfect proxies of the recorded R3D files: they may have an extra frame or 100 on the front or back sides of the clips; they may have timecode that's synced to an alternate clock; they may have metadata, such as filenames, which are not in perfect agreement with the R3D media clip. All of these differences slow things down and/or confuse matters from the DIT to Post. By creating clips which are truly in agreement with respect to file name, timecode, and metadata, and which differ really only in codec and resolution, those problems go away.

Synchronizing two cameras remains an exercise for the reader.
 
But, for me, the real question is... Will the Magnesium Weapon body have a S35 size Sensor Upgrade?
 
Martin Stevens said:
But, for me, the real question is... Will the Magnesium Weapon body have a S35 size Sensor Upgrade?
Click to expand...

Not entirely sure what you mean, but we do know all Dragon sensor bodies can be upgraded to the next. Dragon 6K itself is a very S35 designed sensor and 8K exceeds the height of S35 even.
 
Burke Doeren said:
I think Martin actually meant "FF35 8K sensor" rather than "S35" for his Magnesium Weapon question.
Click to expand...

Ah. Well Jarred mentioned there would be a path for MG Weapon owners to go to 8K. It's likely going to be priced a bit higher than the CF Weapon 8K Dragon. We're also a good chunk away from that.

Though to be honest. I wouldn't mind Weapon 8K Dragon being released in July as well. Pretty excited to shoot specifically at this format and resolution for a while.
 
Phil Holland said:
Ah. Well Jarred mentioned there would be a path for MG Weapon owners to go to 8K. It's likely going to be priced a bit higher than the CF Weapon 8K Dragon. We're also a good chunk away from that.

Though to be honest. I wouldn't mind Weapon 8K Dragon being released in July as well. Pretty excited to shoot specifically at this format and resolution for a while.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't mind skipping the 6k sensored CF Weapon myself!
 
scott devitte said:
Please don't start that kind of idea.
Click to expand...

What! You wouldn't trade a waiver of the savings if that was the only way you could get the 8k sensor months ahead of time? Otherwise RED just waits and releases it at its regularly scheduled time and I have to send my camera cross country after just a few months time of using the 6k sensor, to have it exchanged.

Seems practical to me. (I know... I know... you guys are just feigning fear of a precedent of sorts. '-)
 
I actually did mean S35 or S35ish size sensor.

In other words, I do not need 8K, but wish to know if the Magnesium Weapon body will have a new Sensor Upgrade that is like my
current Dragon Sensor, but only much better, yet still works with PL Glass.
 
Martin Stevens said:
I actually did mean S35 or S35ish size sensor.

In other words, I do not need 8K, but wish to know if the Magnesium Weapon body will have a new Sensor Upgrade that is like my
current Dragon Sensor, but only much better, yet still works with PL Glass.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting if RED proceeds with two sensor sizes for future technology actually, and that's pretty much what's going on with the 8K and 6K Weapon Dragon sensors. Heck maybe 3 sensor sizes could be possible if the market could support it. This is indeed a world of 4K and eventually 8K production these days and it makes sense to me. I use 6K-5K formats mostly on Epic Dragon for my shoots depending on their needs and all of that gets pushed out at 4K at the end of the day.

Perhaps how they'll proceed down the line is just difference cuts on the same sensor tech. Larger formats and resolutions for those who need it and more S35 minded sensor sizes (pretty much like 6K Dragon) for those who are looking for that.

Dragon is still the future as more is still possible and if I was RED I'd hopefully stick to the approximate pixel pitch they have going on for new sensor tech. It's just so damn right.
 
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