#4K4ALL

[Andrew Lee Self]

I get nauseous reading these threads. People always want the whole store. I can't wait till midnight.

Agreed!

 

[Ben Scott]

For God sake stop calling it a 1.87x crop camera!


Fahnon, I am exactly the market for the Raven. Experienced former owner who knows the workflow and ecosystem very well. Shooter who has a mix of clients and projects who occasionally needs more 'oomph'. Someone who has worked up and is ready to transition to another level of productions.

The idea that the student fresh out of college should be looking to buy a Red straight away is - in my world anyway - crazy. Who cares what they'd like to own? I'd like a Porsche but I can't afford one so I'll make do with my Fiat for now, and if I need to rent a Porsche for something i will. I'm not pushing Porsche to give me a 911 for the price of my Fiat or suggesting they replace their expensive pricey brakes with the ones in my Fiat that until now have never failed me.

My rule of thumb (albet born of my own experience) is that if the camera is the most expensive rental on a job then it's most likely you don't have enough lighting/grip to do something like a red justice anyway.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

165 pages of comments, who are "we" here? why are we interested in this new Raven and for what purpose? Are you thinking about it as a B cam or an A cam ?

Who am I and what is my interest in the Raven?


I own a small production company shooting for local and national business', Indie Feature Productions for my team and other talent that wanders my way.

I shoot:

5DM3 & C300 - Short Form Docs, Web Content

Red Scarlet/Epic - Indie Features and Shorts

I own only 5DM3, everything else has been a rental. That time is coming to a close.

I am interested in Raven as an A cam for my Indie Features and even my short form docs.

Why? Price is on point, and I am obsessed with the Dragon Color Science and R3D. That's enough for me.

In my opinion, this is a no brainer for others in a similar situation. I've been shooting Red for 3+ years, I can't wait to officially join the family as an owner.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I don't think there are only those two groups who would be interested in this announcement. In fact, I'd say the first group is probably affluent enough that they aren't the ones driving camera prices down (and maybe don't like that prices are dropping).

I mean think of all the career-young indie-types who are buying the A7s or GH4 or Blackmagic. Huge amount of filmmakers out there who rent Red and would like to own as well, but wouldn't spend $15k on a camera package. I'd taken them as part of the "all" statement, but maybe Red wasn't thinking of them?

Fahnon, RED is not going to make more affordable accessories. This is a mute argument.

At this point, you may need to accept RAVEN for what it IS (which is considerable), not what it isn't.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Why is the crop factor being talked about as if it is unable to provide a cinematic experience?

Five years ago I shot my first short film using an APS-C sensor. The lens choice, lighting, blocking, acting, script, and a million other factors played a significantly larger role in the look of my film over the sensor size. Cinematic or not.

The indie world is ready to accept a cropped sensor Pro Camera like the Raven..spitting out redcode no less! I know for fact the pixel count of my sensor would not have made my first script any better.

I know we love talking specs especially at a time like this but we should look at what we really have in our hands, thanks in large part to Red.

Can we please collectively start changing the perception in this forum of what makes a Cinematic image?

Believe me, when it comes to writing, story boarding or directing my actors, i'm crazy obsessive, i know exactly what i want and i work hugely hard to get it, at these time i NEVER EVER think about the sensor size. But we are on Reduser, and i'm here to discuss specs and new technologies that serves the creative process and allow more freedom.
Of course the sensor size is not what makes a frame "cinematic", but it hugely contributes, and i personally don't see the point of trading a S35 sensor size for a M43 one.. I'm talking about my personal situation, should i sell my Red one Mx and buy a Raven? I will gain a lot in term of weight and convenience, but i will certainly lose in image quality , which is the first purpose of a camera.. So again, my question is: Do you people see yourself trading your S35 sensor size camera for this 1.87 cropped Raven? And if yes, why?
That will help me make a decision, no more than that..

Ps: @Andrew, I'm reading your answer about why are you interested in this Raven, and i totally understand your point. Raven as a first Red camera is great, but what about Red owners? Selling to buy a Raven? Selling What and why?

 

[Andrew Lee Self]

Sony said #newayofseeing and then dropped the FS5 with an 8-bit long-gop codec only.

'All' is not some soccer mom. 'All' is 'All that were considering a high end cinema camera for around $10-15,000 ready to shoot. For which there is a huge market. It just might not be yours or mine at the moment.

Well said! Let's be honest, If you only have 2-5 grand to spend on a package, chances are you are starting out and RED isn't really a camera to cut your teeth on; its a professional cinema camera with a workflow made for professional shoots. Of course RED is alluring to beginners and most people would want a Lamborghini as their first car, that doesn't mean its a good idea.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Believe me, when it comes to writing, story boarding or directing my actors, i'm crazy obsessive, i know exactly what i want and i work hugely hard to get it, at these time i NEVER EVER think about the sensor size. But we are on Reduser, and i'm here to discuss specs and new technologies that serves the creative process and allow more freedom.
Of course the sensor size is not what makes a frame "cinematic", but it hugely contributes, and i personally don't see the point of trading a S35 sensor size for a M43 one.. I'm talking about my personal situation, should i sell my Red one Mx and buy a Raven? I will gain a lot in term of weight and convenience, but i will certainly lose in image quality , which is the first purpose of a camera.. So again, my question is: Do you people see yourself trading your S35 sensor size camera for this 1.87 cropped Raven? And if yes, why?
That will help me make a decision, no more than that..

I agree. And I don't have an answer to your big question.

All I can say is in regards to my experience shooting Red One VS what it "seems" we will be getting with Raven.

I think you are underselling the gain in "weight and convenience" with the Raven if we are talking run and gun style shooting with these two cameras. Run and gun is hardly an option with Red One, and that's a camera in which I have historically enjoyed the results.

I understand we may have different styles of shooting, so that's cool. Every tool has it's own purpose.

Upgrading to Dragon 4k@120fps from the MX, and the light, smaller form factor of the Raven is ABSOLUTELY worth the trade off in sensor size for my style of shooting. No question.

 

[Elsie N]

Believe me, when it comes to writing, story boarding or directing my actors, i'm crazy obsessive, i know exactly what i want and i work hugely hard to get it, at these time i NEVER EVER think about the sensor size. But we are on Reduser, and i'm here to discuss specs and new technologies that serves the creative process and allow more freedom.
Of course the sensor size is not what makes a frame "cinematic", but it hugely contributes, and i personally don't see the point of trading a S35 sensor size for a M43 one.. I'm talking about my personal situation, should i sell my Red one Mx and buy a Raven? I will gain a lot in term of weight and convenience, but i will certainly lose in image quality , which is the first purpose of a camera.. So again, my question is: Do you people see yourself trading your S35 sensor size camera for this 1.87 cropped Raven? And if yes, why?
That will help me make a decision, no more than that..

Ps: @Andrew, I'm reading your answer about why are you interested in this Raven, and i totally understand your point. Raven as a first Red camera is great, but what about Red owners? Selling to buy a Raven? Selling What and why?

Mendes, it is not necessarily about the sensor resolution in this case but more about the Dragon sensor and the accompanying color science + frame rate. It really takes a camera person to get it.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

I agree. And I don't have an answer to your big question.

All I can say is in regards to my experience shooting Red One VS what it "seems" we will be getting with Raven.

I think you are underselling the gain in "weight and convenience" with the Raven if we are talking run and gun style shooting with these two cameras. Run and gun is hardly an option with Red One, and that's a camera in which I have historically enjoyed the results.

I understand we may have different styles of shooting, so that's cool. Every tool has it's own purpose.

Upgrading to Dragon 4k@120fps from the MX, and the light, smaller form factor of the Raven is ABSOLUTELY worth the trade off in sensor size for my style of shooting. No question.

Your answer is important and confort me in what i think: "it's a hard decision to take"
For people who are used to Red one Mx and Dragon sensor, what's your opinion about all that? Will the Raven produce better images than the Red one Mx (in a purely cinematic way, so the high speed is not important at all here).

Few hours before the announcement and a lot of talk here, that's why i love the Red community, by the way, in a little premature way : "Welcome in the Red owner community Andrew"

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Mendes, it is not necessarily about the sensor resolution in this case but more about the Dragon sensor and the accompanying color science + frame rate. It really takes a camera person to get it.

I'm gonna drive people crazy with this answer but, the more i watch Dragon footage the more i love the Red one Mx look.. It has a filmic something that i can't explain.. But i have to run my own tests i guess.. And for the speed, that's not my point, i shoot 24 fps only..

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

Fahnon, RED is not going to make more affordable accessories. This is a mute argument.

At this point, you may need to accept RAVEN for what it IS (which is considerable), not what it isn't.

Hey, Nick, I have no skin in this game either way. The market at that price point has a lot of options; I don't personally need to buy from any particular manufacturer.

I'm simply pointing out a question people outside of Red's eco-system will ask considering the (also very considerable) competition.

Looking forward to the announcement and curious to see how this conversation will play outside reduser.net...

 

[Alexander Thomson]

I have wanted to own a RED since the One came out. When Scarlet was announced, I tried, but I couldn't swing it, so I borrowed one when I could, rented when I couldn't, and did my best with a 7D if I had to. In those years, I've become a better shooter. I've discovered where RED will save my ass.... and more importantly, where it won't.

A RED won't save a shitty story. A RED can't fix low CRI lights. But the footage can be manipulated and transformed into whatever "look" you want it to be. Plus, the amount of money you save shooting compressed REDcode vs Cinema DNG pays for the camera if you shoot enough.

I was a young twenty-something-just-outta-film-school kid with crazy gear lust. Now, in 2015, I've found it's not necessarily the money that's been the barrier. It's the REDucation. Learning how to get the best out of the camera is more important IMHO than being able to afford it in the first place.

Honestly, I'm (slightly) glad I couldn't afford it back in 2011. Raven is going to be an extraordinary deal for a camera that's going to last a very long time. Yes, the media, the displays, the peripherals, they feel expensive. But when you take a close look at the reliability and functionality you are getting, it's worth it.

#4K4ALL in the most basic sense of the term is the iPhone 6s. $650 and you've got 4K internal recording. RED is not making a low cost, mass market video camera. They're making an aggressively priced RED that a working solo professional can afford.

Just like making the jump from owning a Canon 7D to a Raven, maybe in five years i'll be talking about making the jump to Weapon.

Horses for courses.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I'd taken them as part of the "all" statement, but maybe Red wasn't thinking of them?

An iPhone 6s is 4K4ALL....or it's not, if you can't afford a $649 phone. You're getting bogged down in the wrong things.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point, altogether. You're making the mistake of assuming since RED is selling a camera for $5950, everything else associated with it should be budget-minded as well.

What you fail to realize is what you're getting for the ~$10K investment in Raven. A FREAKING BARGAIN.

For major motion picture/narrative TV production, you're basically looking at three camera families - Arri, RED, and Sony.

Dragon alone has currently shot The Last Ship, The Knick, Daredevil, Mr. Robot, Public Morals, Into the Badlands, Narcos, House of Cards, Better Call Saul, Impastor, Gone Girl, The Martian, The Danish Girl, Straight Outta Compton, The Walk, X-Men: Apocalypse, 13 Hours, Point Break, Independence Day Resurgence, Stonewall, etc...and counting.

The Ursa Mini, FS7/5, F5/55 and C300 MKII will never come close to that, despite productions becoming more cost-conscious. Dragon is simply in a different league than these other (very capable) sensors. You're getting a 4K slice of a top-tier sensor and camera tech for almost a third of what it could be costing you.

Consider the money you save on the camera and take what you consider your lumps on the virtually bulletproof media.

 

[Ben Scott]

Will the Raven produce better images than the Red one Mx (in a purely cinematic way...

This is a question with no answer. People have argued for over a decade as to what makes an image 'cinematic' with no clear definition emerging. I'd say no. No it won't, as it won't come with a great set designer, art director, gaffer and DP.

 

[Elsie N]

I'm gonna drive people crazy with this answer but, the more i watch Dragon footage the more i love the Red one Mx look.. It has a filmic something that i can't explain.. But i have to run my own tests i guess.. And for the speed, that's not my point, i shoot 24 fps only..

Gunleik will go you one better... he still wistfully remembers back to the R-1 M sensor. '-)

Better understanding your POV, I get it why you asked the question you did.

ADDITIONAL: But with the Dragon you also get Dragon specific REDCINE tools that offers you limitless ways to change your capture.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Does anyone have any links to Epic Dragon footage shot with a 4K crop. Just curious?

Edit...just found this.

This could give those with questions about the crop a more organic answer.

https://vimeo.com/128775567

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

This is a question with no answer. People have argued for over a decade as to what makes an image 'cinematic' with no clear definition emerging. I'd say no. No it won't, as it won't come with a great set designer, art director, gaffer and DP.

I agree completely.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The technical reasons why Dragon is superior to MX are well documented on this site and in the Red Documentation, but only you know what you like and only you know the look that conveys your story to your audience, and maybe it's not Dragon.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm simply pointing out a question people outside of Red's eco-system will ask considering the (also very considerable) competition.

Camera companies really only "lock" folks into their MEDIA and sometimes EVFs. And sure, in RED's case if you want touchscreen control - you need to use a RED touchscreen monitor - but there are other control options now for RED cameras - so, you can actually just use a SmallHD SIDEFINDER + FoolControl or Switchblade if you want.

Almost nobody builds out an ARRI camera with only ARRI AKS, or a SONY camera with only SONY ASK, etc. etc. - and pretty much NOBODY builds out a RED camera with only RED AKS. There are many, many options in quality and price and function. And MUCH more coming.

LOTS of companies making AKS at all kinds of pricepoints. I was SHOCKED at how much TILTA has upped their game at IBC. For Chinease company that has NO CLUE how to sell to the US market - they are now making some slick stuff - VERY, VERY low price point.

I would not worry one moment about affordable AKS.

 

[sam karr]

Raven will be great. Something tells me that we are not finished with boring pointless slowmo footages.

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

For God sake stop calling it a 1.87x crop camera!


Fahnon, I am exactly the market for the Raven. Experienced former owner who knows the workflow and ecosystem very well. Shooter who has a mix of clients and projects who occasionally needs more 'oomph'. Someone who has worked up and is ready to transition to another level of productions.

The idea that the student fresh out of college should be looking to buy a Red straight away is - in my world anyway - crazy. Who cares what they'd like to own? I'd like a Porsche but I can't afford one so I'll make do with my Fiat for now, and if I need to rent a Porsche for something i will. I'm not pushing Porsche to give me a 911 for the price of my Fiat or suggesting they replace their expensive pricey brakes with the ones in my Fiat that until now have never failed me.

My rule of thumb (albet born of my own experience) is that if the camera is the most expensive rental on a job then it's most likely you don't have enough lighting/grip to do something like a red justice anyway.

Ben, I don't think any student fresh out of college should buy ANY $6k camera even if the media was free. I agree that'd be crazy.