#4K4ALL

[Glen Powell]

Red says #4k4all, no?

Depends how you interpret that - #4K4ALL working (as in full time job working) DP's & Cameramen. Or #4K4ALL hobbyist, weekend warrior, cameramen?

Different groups.

 

[BrandonChristensen]

Red says #4k4all, no?

I'm not trying to be glib, but if they price the media/accessories out of the price range of most it's a bit misleading.

Maybe they're only making 4000 of them.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Red says #4k4all, no?

You need to look at Nick's post. I was a lot like you in terms of concern of cost with the Scarlet MX. But I went full in and made it work.

Do what you can afford and grow with your gear. What you get in the Raven for under 10K with a monitor/card etc is amazing. Many of us on here bought the Scarlet MX for $9,500 the day it released and spent way more for what you can get now for $10K. Thats also with a max resolution of 4K 30fps and 5K 12fps.

I think the number of success stories from that night would greatly out number those that have failed. This camera will do that again in my opinion. If I were in the shoes looking at the RAVEN as my first camera I'd be so incredibly stoked. 4K 120fps right out the gate? Who does that?!!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Red says #4k4all, no?

I'm not trying to be glib, but if they price the media/accessories out of the price range of most it's a bit misleading.

Fahnon, RED is selling a 4K Dragon for $6k. Yes...that's 4K for all IMHO. As is releasing a sub $1000 128 card (targeted at indies). The "shooting package" with most likely one or two cards will by all accounts be under $10K!

That's 4KFORALL in my book!

If you don't agree, there are certainly other options out there - A7, Black Magic, Sony, etc. The market, by it's design, gives you choices.

Sounds like you're suggesting RED completely restructure their ecosystem - new mags, new screens, new everything - so budget conscious shooters can save what? A grand or two? They're already saving $10K on Raven!!! Remember....120fps at 4K is what an EPIC DRAGON CAN DO....something many people spent $40-50K on shooting packages for...3 years ago.

At a certain point, RED can only go so far. The rest...as they say...is up to you.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Fahnon, RED is selling a 4K Dragon for $6k. Yes...that's 4K for all IMHO. And releasing a sub $1000 128 card (targeted at indies). The "shooting package" with most likely one or two cards will by all accounts be under $10K!

That's 4KFORALL in my book!

If you don't agree, there are certainly other options out there - A7, Black Magic, Sony, etc. The market, by it's design, gives you choices.

It sounds like you are asking RED to completely restructure their ecosystem - new mags, new screens, new everything - so budget concious shooters can save what? A grand or two? They are already saving $10K on Raven!!!

120fps at 4K is what an EPIC DRAGON CAN DO.

At a certain point, RED can only go so far. The rest...as they say...is up to you.

Well said.

 

[Glen Powell]

Red says #4k4all, no?

I'm not trying to be glib, but if they price the media/accessories out of the price range of most it's a bit misleading.

It's pro level camera, with a 4K sensor that has been used / is being used on 100's of A level H'wood movies, and TV shows... How much more do you want?

Meh - kind of done with this guy.

 

[Samir Patel]

I get nauseous reading these threads. People always want the whole store. I can't wait till midnight.

 

[BrandonChristensen]

According to Phil's poem, midnight should be when info drops.

Goddamn. My body is ready.

If it's what I think it is, I'm gonna put a deposit in as soon as I can.

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

I fully understand you. I'm not trying to knock those who can't afford it down. The point i'm making is that people like to make a point of what this stuff costs, and like to make it the reason they can't justify it.

It's like Phil said earlier. You can save money on accessories in some places. But i've used other cameras and rarely would media, power, plates, monitors still hold value to me in 4 years time. I'm using pretty much all the same gear I started with on the Scarlet MX and am now using it on Epic Dragon. The buy in is expensive, that is very true. Keeping that in mind, the fact I've used all the same accessories for that long is pretty crazy. Find another company out there making 4K + Cinema cameras for the past 5+ years that has allowed you to have the same accessories you started with, and also the reliability that comes along with it.

It pays for itself. For anyone looking at RED i'd say make it work for you, and make sure it's going to. The last thing you want to do is buy a camera that you're posting in The Marketplace 2-3 months later because you can't justify the cost, or can't afford it initially.

I hear you and that's cool that they allow you to use the same accessories. I just think it's a different mindset under $10k. If I spent $2500 on a single memory card, you are absolutely right that I want to use it for as long as possible. But if I spent $100 per card, I don't actually expect to keep all my media because it just didn't cost so much that I feel like I should. So basically I'd be ecstatic to use CFast 2 cards now and sell them if/when I upgrade. I think I'd be pretty typical, too.

Here's the thing: Look at all the choices at that price point. Red has to show potential customers in a saturated market why it's better to spend that much on media. Customers who aren't used to spending that much. Why is that mini-mag better than the faster CFast cards? My perception of CF/CFast is that they're reliable and I think Red will have to explain to potential customers why Sony and Panasonic and Blackmagic and Canon all are ok with pros using their cameras with less expensive media.

I'm betting you'll hear this sentiment expressed a lot over the next few months...

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

It's pro level camera, with a 4K sensor that has been used / is being used on 100's of A level H'wood movies, and TV shows... How much more do you want?

Meh - kind of done with this guy.

Well that's pretty rude...

It makes sense to price the accessories in line with the body and the competition, unless you can demonstrate why it's worth so much more. Be prepared to be "done" with a lot of folks if they pair a $6k body with a $850 memory card.

 

[Ben Scott]

Red says #4k4all, no?

I'm not trying to be glib, but if they price the media/accessories out of the price range of most it's a bit misleading.

Sony said #newayofseeing and then dropped the FS5 with an 8-bit long-gop codec only.

'All' is not some soccer mom. 'All' is 'All that were considering a high end cinema camera for around $10-15,000 ready to shoot. For which there is a huge market. It just might not be yours or mine at the moment.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I hear you and that's cool that they allow you to use the same accessories. I just think it's a different mindset under $10k. If I spent $2500 on a single memory card, you are absolutely right that I want to use it for as long as possible. But if I spent $100 per card, I don't actually expect to keep all my media because it just didn't cost so much that I feel like I should. So basically I'd be ecstatic to use CFast 2 cards now and sell them if/when I upgrade. I think I'd be pretty typical, too.

Here's the thing: Look at all the choices at that price point. Red has to show potential customers in a saturated market why it's better to spend that much on media. Customers who aren't used to spending that much. Why is that mini-mag better than the faster CFast cards? My perception of CF/CFast is that they're reliable and I think Red will have to explain to potential customers why Sony and Panasonic and Blackmagic and Canon all are ok with pros using their cameras with less expensive media.

I'm betting you'll hear this sentiment expressed a lot over the next few months...

Probably true.

In the end it's for you or it's not. In the end I wanted the best camera I could afford with the most tools in the toolbox at my disposal instead of making concessions for something cheaper. I'm not saying the camera makes the shooter, I believe the opposite of that actually. But if you give your self more tool's from the start it'll only give you more creative freedom.

I took a pretty big financial risk jumping into the RED ecosystem. But i'm glad I did it and have never regretted it.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Well that's pretty rude...

It makes sense to price the accessories in line with the body and the competition, unless you can demonstrate why it's worth so much more. Be prepared to be "done" with a lot of folks if they pair a $6k body with a $850 memory card.

Show me what other camera shoots compressed raw 4K 120fps for under $6,000 for the body? Heck under $10,000...

 

[BrandonChristensen]

Well that's pretty rude...

It makes sense to price the accessories in line with the body and the competition, unless you can demonstrate why it's worth so much more. Be prepared to be "done" with a lot of folks if they pair a $6k body with a $850 memory card.

I think it's just an old conversation that was had back when the Scarlet was announced.

I was in the same boat, I was like "Okay, I can squeak out a $9500 body, but what are they THINKING charging $800 for a 64GB card?" I extended myself a little bit further than I probably should have. Over time, I upgraded bits and pieces and now I'm really comfortable with my Scarlet rig...though the thought of 4K at 120 is very enticing and my Scarlet rig will net me most of the cost of upgrading. That's a pretty great proposition to me. If the OG Scarlet was $5950, and the bits and pieces were as cheap as they are now, it would have been a lot easier for people like myself.

 

[Ben Scott]

I hear you and that's cool that they allow you to use the same accessories. I just think it's a different mindset under $10k. If I spent $2500 on a single memory card, you are absolutely right that I want to use it for as long as possible. But if I spent $100 per card, I don't actually expect to keep all my media because it just didn't cost so much that I feel like I should. So basically I'd be ecstatic to use CFast 2 cards now and sell them if/when I upgrade. I think I'd be pretty typical, too.

Here's the thing: Look at all the choices at that price point. Red has to show potential customers in a saturated market why it's better to spend that much on media. Customers who aren't used to spending that much. Why is that mini-mag better than the faster CFast cards? My perception of CF/CFast is that they're reliable and I think Red will have to explain to potential customers why Sony and Panasonic and Blackmagic and Canon all are ok with pros using their cameras with less expensive media.

I'm betting you'll hear this sentiment expressed a lot over the next few months...

There's basically one set of calculations that needs to be done. Can you afford the shooting kit and do you have the client base to get a return on it. It doesn't matter if one part costs more than you think it should if another costs a lot less than you thought it would.

I'm sure that sentiment will be made several times in the future, but to be honest people keep trying to compare this to a DSLR or an Ursa or an FS7. It's a different world, and whilst not for everyone it will be a gamechanger in a lot of fields. But it is absolutely imperative that you ascertain if the camera/workflow/costs work for you and the type of work you do, not the type of work you'd like to be doing.

EDIT: What Brandon said...

I should add, as a UK shooter I'm sure this will be a hell of a lot more expensive in the UK than it is in the US.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Yep. It's about what the Data Transfer Rate is in the camera, however, there are notable speed differences between MINI-MAGs for Weapon shooters, which is something people should know. It's clearly written and shown in the DSMC Media Operation Guide.

Specifically the fastest MINI-MAGs are the 512GB and 1TB. The 120GB and 240GB are a smidge slower. However, I think the 120GB and 240GB will fit what Raven's Data Transfer Rates can do.




'Twas the night before NAB. 2015.
We awaited online and in Vegas to learn of the machine.
Near the stroke of the clock, close to a new day,
Jarred began posting with much to say.
There were Recon posts o' plenty announcing new the Weapon,
plus several new accessories that would be useful before yelling "ACTION".
Expanders and Modules, a new EVF, 3rd Party Accessory Support.
Magic Forged Weapon bodies, 8K Sensors, and the upgrade info in the report.
On the internet some of us looked on in awe reading info off the screens.
Just like the Double Rainbow, we weren't sure what all of this means.
One thing is for sure, after a moment, we all knew DSMC had evolved.
The only real question in April was if Weapon would ship on time remained unsolved.
I sit here penning a pleasantly pleased camera driven rhyme.
I can indeed confirm, as it is sitting next to me, RED Weapon shipped ON TIME.
What sort of miracle did it take for this to occur?!
The hard work of many, much appreciated, for this I am sure.
Now begins the curious tale of this new RED Raven camera brain.
An affordable RED indie-friendly cam, many are curious how to obtain.
To answer the query, this all occurred in Pacific Standard Time.
If I was you, around Midnight, do your best to be Online.

Fantastic! Don't know why this makes me so happy.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

I can tell you one thing...when I am on a high end shoot..and months of pre-pro have gone into it...and you are 10 hours in and the budget clock has been ticking all day...

...you have your entire reputation sitting on those cards. I sure as hell don't mind paying a premium knowing they will deliver every time.

You could argue that "so do Cfast...compact flash....ect"...but those don't handle what RED it capable of.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

'Twas the night before NAB. 2015.
We awaited online and in Vegas to learn of the machine.
Near the stroke of the clock, close to a new day,
Jarred began posting with much to say.
There were Recon posts o' plenty announcing new the Weapon,
plus several new accessories that would be useful before yelling "ACTION".
Expanders and Modules, a new EVF, 3rd Party Accessory Support.
Magic Forged Weapon bodies, 8K Sensors, and the upgrade info in the report.
On the internet some of us looked on in awe reading info off the screens.
Just like the Double Rainbow, we weren't sure what all of this means.
One thing is for sure, after a moment, we all knew DSMC had evolved.
The only real question in April was if Weapon would ship on time remained unsolved.
I sit here penning a pleasantly pleased camera driven rhyme.
I can indeed confirm, as it is sitting next to me, RED Weapon shipped ON TIME.
What sort of miracle did it take for this to occur?!
The hard work of many, much appreciated, for this I am sure.
Now begins the curious tale of this new RED Raven camera brain.
An affordable RED indie-friendly cam, many are curious how to obtain.
To answer the query, this all occurred in Pacific Standard Time.
If I was you, around Midnight, do your best to be Online.

I knew you had the answer, and what a beautiful one.. Thanks for that Phil'

To all people here, the more i think about that "120fps@4K" the more i believe this new raven will be able to shoot 4,5k @ 25fps (or 5K?), and at a more interesting crop factor.. What you guys think?

 

[Jae Solina]

I knew you had the answer, and what a beautiful one.. Thanks for that Phil'

To all people here, the more i think about that "120fps@4K" the more i believe this new raven will be able to shoot 4,5k @ 25fps (or 5K?), and at a more interesting crop factor.. What you guys think?

Pretty sure Jarred said no 5K the night he spilled the beans on the price.

 

[Steven Hilder]

the more i think about that "120fps@4K" the more i believe this new raven will be able to shoot 4,5k @ 25fps (or 5K?), and at a more interesting crop factor.. What you guys think?

You won't be able to shoot anything at a resolution higher than 4K, regardless of media data rates and internal processing horsepower, simply because it's a 4K sensor.

Dragon's pixel pitch is 0.005mm - multiply that by 4096 and you get 20.48mm which is the width of the sensor as confirmed by Jarred.