#4K4ALL

[David Mullen ASC]

I see, so it's the wavelet (hope I'm getting the term right) compression holding internal down-scaling back?

I believe that to downscale raw well, you'd have to debayer it to an RGB codec, otherwise you're stuck doing things like line skipping and pixel binning to reduce the number of pixels being recorded in raw without doing the debayering first. Remember a raw image is monochromatic with this complex Bayer filter pattern that filters specific photosites for red, green, or blue information, so downscaling without first debayering that to RGB is difficult, and pixel binning and line skipping to reduce the pixel count can lead to chroma aliasing problems.

So basically either you record full sensor raw or some cropped portion, or you debayer and downscale it if you want and record that in some RGB codec.

 

[Troy Bakewell]

I don't understand; it's night time on the west coast, yet Jarred isn't here leaking more details like a sieve... Ridiculous... I'm not going to sleep until I read another couple Raven details -- exact weight, mount-info, prores or no, etc? -- something...

lol

Damit. I was bout to go to sleep.

 

[Mike P.]

Yeah, but they're already debayering for the monitor path, so that step is definitely done on the fly on all RED cameras already (though, technically, maybe only to 1080p.) I don't think there's a technical reason why you couldn't hijack that debayered single to make the downscale from (though, again, you may be limited to 1080 depending on the camera's output specs -- does Weapon output 4k via SDI/HDMI?)

 

[Maik Müller]

I see, so it's the wavelet (hope I'm getting the term right) compression holding internal down-scaling back?

Not the compression itself, it's the fact that RED doesn't do the debayering before saving data. It gives lots of advantages and underlines the pure RAW aspect of REDs philosophy but has some smaller downsides too.

Simple downscaling (x/2) could work, maybe... Oh and monochrome RED could maybe do even more.

 

[Dean Butler]

I believe that to downscale raw well, you'd have to debayer it to an RGB codec, otherwise you're stuck doing things like line skipping and pixel binning to reduce the number of pixels being recorded in raw without doing the debayering first. Remember a raw image is monochromatic with this complex Bayer filter pattern that filters specific photosites for red, green, or blue information, so downscaling without first debayering that to RGB is difficult, and pixel binning and line skipping to reduce the pixel count can lead to chroma aliasing problems.

So basically either you record full sensor raw or some cropped portion, or you debayer and downscale it if you want and record that in some RGB codec.

Thanks David!

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

If this is correct i can se me getting an companion to my epic mx.
Would not be so interesting with the standard sensor so much cropped in.

It is a smaller Dragon-Sensor.



http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136117-4K4ALL&p=1546507&viewfull=1#post1546507

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

If its a dragon 6k sensor with a maximum of 4k im abit worried. On mx 4k looks really good and the 3k is fine. But i would never shoot 3k if im not totaly forced to (which is closed to never). Isnt 4k on a dragon sensor to much cropped sensor for everyday use? 5k im sure would look great everyday.

Yes Joel you pose a great point

should be a 5K or at least 4.5K Sensor

Allot of hype in in the air over Raven right now

anything smaller than S35 is a step backwards in my opinion unless you go for Sensor height to accommodate Anamorphic like GH4

Every company has 4K sensors no one has 5K except for Red even URSA is 4.6K

S35 5K Dragon Sensor would be a win

I have worked on shoots where we shot 4K and turned out alright 60fps at Max Compression Epic Dragon can turn out with Master Primes and the image did alright. But once you go into low light your gonna see allot of artifacts. Had to shoot 250 ASA at 5.6T Stop and allot of light to allow the cropped sensor to hold up....Otherwise it falls apart with noise and artifacts.

Red always shorts you with they're cheaper cameras.... wish they would go all in. Scarlet should have always been able to shoot FF at speed (24fps/25fps). I feel the same with Raven only instead not offering 6K stills they're just making a cropped sensor.

I think people would prefer 5K S35 at 48fps/60fps with interchangeable mounts as opposed to 4K 1.8X Crop Smaller Sensor and Canon EOS Mount.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I'm not ruling out 4.5K until RED rules it out.

Also just wondering if it is possible...just possible...that RED may be getting back in the lens game - doing some kind of optimization with an electronic lens? I know it has been discussed in the past, and the prevailing wind is that they are out of the lens biz. But RED also likes to invent totally new things, when they can't find exactly what they want from someone else.

just a few thoughts as I watch the render bar for the second night in a row...

 

[Marc Oberdorfer]

Yes Joel you pose a great point

should be a 5K or at least 4.5K Sensor

Allot of hype in in the air over Raven right now

anything smaller than S35 is a step backwards in my opinion unless you go for Sensor height to accommodate Anamorphic like GH4

Every company has 4K sensors no one has 5K except for Red even URSA is 4.6K

S35 5K Dragon Sensor would be a win

I have worked on shoots where we shot 4K and turned out alright 60fps at Max Compression Epic Dragon can turn out with Master Primes and the image did alright. But once you go into low light your gonna see allot of artifacts. Had to shoot 250 ASA at 5.6T Stop and allot of light to allow the cropped sensor to hold up....Otherwise it falls apart with noise and artifacts.

Red always shorts you with they're cheaper cameras.... wish they would go all in. Scarlet should have always been able to shoot FF at speed (24fps/25fps). I feel the same with Raven only instead not offering 6K stills they're just making a cropped sensor.

I think people would prefer 5K S35 at 48fps/60fps with interchangeable mounts as opposed to 4K 1.8X Crop Smaller Sensor and Canon EOS Mount.

4K HD on Dragon should be 1.96x crop even, so almost the same as 4/3. I'm a Scarlet MX user so I've been shooting almost everything 4K.
On my last feature I had to resort to 3K as we were shooting some stuff in 60fps which turned out fine but only because we had lots of light.

What really bugs me is also that us Scarlet MX users never got the ability to shoot at speed on 5K or at least a bump up to 4.5K as the Red One.

Now seeing the Raven camera coming doing 4K @ 120fps Scarlet MX will lose even more value, it's a real bugger I think. Feels like Red is letting down a lot of Scarlet owners in this regard, Dragon upgrade is not available anymore either.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

From what I can tell, if you own a RED camera cannot get a good image from the 4K window, you are doing something wrong. RED sensors don't get magically noisy or soft below 5K acquisition. Having said that, it seems obvious that the Raven will be offering at least 4.5K acquisition at 24fps.

 

[Brian Merlen]

idk what to do anymore, this camera almost makes not want to weaponize to 8k, or to still do it and use the credits toward raven instead of accessories? i already spent 80k this year on cameras though i think i may have a problem or something lol

 

[Craig Parkes]

Haven't read if anyone else has raised this, but just in case no one has:

With the Raven sensor width being about half the Epic 8K sensor height, any bets on it's height being about 10.5mm and it being pretty close to a native 2:1 sensor?

My thinking being that like scarlet, this may be a way to improve the functional yield from RED's sensor tech, but in this case using silicon that doesn't work out for the 8K Weapons in Raven instead.

 

[Marc Oberdorfer]

I totally agree. I've been getting amazing images from 4K MX and Dragon is a better sensor still with 4K at a very similar crop. Pretty sure Raven will be a very good camera at a combat pricing. So very likely for me to sell my MX brain for peanuts and make the jump but waiting for final specs.

 

[Phil Holland]

4K HD on Dragon should be 1.96x crop even, so almost the same as 4/3. I'm a Scarlet MX user so I've been shooting almost everything 4K.
On my last feature I had to resort to 3K as we were shooting some stuff in 60fps which turned out fine but only because we had lots of light.

What really bugs me is also that us Scarlet MX users never got the ability to shoot at speed on 5K or at least a bump up to 4.5K as the Red One.

Now seeing the Raven camera coming out, similar crop and 4K @ 120fps as Scarlet MX my camera will lose even more value, it's a real bugger I think. Feels like Red is letting down a lot of Scarlet owners in this regard, Dragon upgrade is not available anymore either.

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?

I don't know if RED will ever re-implement the Dragon upgrade program offered for some time, but I am curious to what most Mysterium-X shooters would be looking for now knowing what RED has up their sleeves.

Cameras do indeed lose value over time, that's part of the industry sadly. However, what is good news is no RED camera to date has been made obsolete. Literally every camera model released is out there shooting 4K and 4K+ motion pictures. That in itself "adds value".

 

[Brian Merlen]

plus if you handhold a red one for extended durations ur probably adding years to your life with all the exercise

 

[Jae Solina]

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?

I don't know if RED will ever re-implement the Dragon upgrade program offered for some time, but I am curious to what most Mysterium-X shooters would be looking for now knowing what RED has up their sleeves.

Cameras do indeed lose value over time, that's part of the industry sadly. However, what is good news is no RED camera to date has been made obsolete. Literally every camera model released is out there shooting 4K and 4K+ motion pictures. That in itself "adds value".

My Red Scarlet will be on ebay.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?

I don't know if RED will ever re-implement the Dragon upgrade program offered for some time, but I am curious to what most Mysterium-X shooters would be looking for now knowing what RED has up their sleeves.

Cameras do indeed lose value over time, that's part of the industry sadly. However, what is good news is no RED camera to date has been made obsolete. Literally every camera model released is out there shooting 4K and 4K+ motion pictures. That in itself "adds value".

I got my scarlet mx as bt about 3 years ago. It has been an amazing camera. I shoot a fairly bare bones set up and kept my costs quite low overall to get up and running, used LCD and media etc. Sure I wanted to upgrrade to Scarlet D, but was a hard decision costing more then my original cost for brain, ssd, and canon mount.

At this point Raven seems like a no brainer for me, 4k 120fps with a dragon sensor, wow! 4.5k at 30fps would be amazing. Sure I love 5k from the Scarlet d, but I think the Raven has more benefits for me atleast, lighter, higher fps, dynamic range, color science, better low light, auto blackshade hopefully, and just overall I'm excited to get into a newer, fresher body style. But it will be interesting to see what the price of a used Scarlet D will be now? Oh, and what I will be able to get for my mx, hmmm, hopefully Red will take it off my hands.

Phil I am assuming my current 5" touch and battery belt clip will work with the Raven, weapon seems to need something like the base expander to run my vmount batts, and to use my wireless mics ect and not just the built in mics. Im thinking Raven will need this as well, but who knows.

Do you know how the mx sensor sensitivity compares to low light olpf, standard and skin tone. I'm assuming more towards skin tone.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Just a curious question for Epic and Scarlet Mysterium-X shooters out there. With Raven, Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon, and the various flavors of Weapon now all "existing" what sort of path would be most interesting to you at this point?

I don't know if RED will ever re-implement the Dragon upgrade program offered for some time, but I am curious to what most Mysterium-X shooters would be looking for now knowing what RED has up their sleeves.

Cameras do indeed lose value over time, that's part of the industry sadly. However, what is good news is no RED camera to date has been made obsolete. Literally every camera model released is out there shooting 4K and 4K+ motion pictures. That in itself "adds value".

I sold my Scarlet three months ago

I'm happy on Epic Dragon. My R1 MX makes as great images as ever if I want to shoot MX sensor. It isn't going anywhere.

There's no case for me going to Weapon and I don't see one emerging any time soon. Prores isn't compelling for me. What paths would interest me? That's no secret.

I've said it before and I make no apology for saying it again; there are two cameras I would elbow grannies aside to get in the queue to buy; a compact lightweight RED S16 camera with a real S16 4K sensor; and a RED camera with the A7S sensor but RED back-end and user interface, and Graeme's magic of course! Fat chance of either of them happening, but that's what I would love to see.


There's a lot of lovely S16 glass out there, and the Ikonoscop was the closest thing to a proper digital cinema camera to be built for that format; I'd love to see it done right, in 4K, by RED. And I love my Dragon to bits - but when the sun goes down on a volcano the Dragon goes to sleep and the A7S gets fired up. I don't especially like what I get out of it, and I loath the shape and the user interface with a passion; I want to be shooting the A7S sensor in a RED body. But I can get pretty decent footage out of the A7S in conditions where I could black-shade the Dragon with the lens cap *off*!

Mike

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I find it interesting that people are still going over "options" about things that have already been confirmed:

It's an EF-mount (look at the picture!!, plus Jarred said it electronically controls the Canon lenses), it's a Dragon sensor that is 20.48mm wide (Jarred has said this too), which means it's exactly 4096px wide. We don't know the height for sure, but if you look at the picture you can basically see that it's 2160px based on ratio.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil I am assuming my current 5" touch and battery belt clip will work with the Raven, weapon seems to need something like the base expander to run my vmount batts, and to use my wireless mics ect and not just the built in mics. Im thinking Raven will need this as well, but who knows.

Do you know how the mx sensor sensitivity compares to low light olpf, standard and skin tone. I'm assuming more towards skin tone.

If Raven's whole thing is exactly like Weapon's whole thing with the DSMC² body type you will be able to use the Base Expander to pipe in sound and power. The 5" LCD Touch should work if you are using the WEAPON LEMO ADAPTOR A and slinging the LEMO cable in there, that's of course assuming if there isn't a built in LCD/EVF port on Raven. I don't exactly know just yet.

It does look like you can put a basic shooter package together "from scratch" for just shy of $10K, which is the impressive thing here. If you have accessories that will work with Raven, it's even less expensive to get in there.