#4K4ALL

[Kemalettin Sert]

Besides Jarred has all but completely confirmed it's Dragon

where? can you quote me that post from jarred?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

where? can you quote me that post from jarred?

From Facebook: Ravens (heart) dragons

 

[Adam Rook]

Thanks Gunleik. That's what I meant by "all BUT confirmed..."

It makes sense to me for R3D to offer a choice of Mount. All my glass is EF and I would very ture u on say that probably a majority of indie guys have EF glass. It's a guess so don't blast me for that assumption.

OMG this will be a long week.
But do like all this speculation. I think it's fun.

 

[Adam Rook]

Also look at that picture Jarred used. I don't typically like to try to read more into what's there but isn't that a picture of Ravens coming out of a Dragon? Like maybe it IS a hint of a 4K cut of the 8K Dragon sensor?

OK now. ..discuss...

 

[Patrick Grossien]

4K Dragon cropped from current 6K sensor is 20.47 x 10.8 mm (which puts it in micro 4/3 territory if I'm not mistaken)
I'd assume that in order to make it reasonably priced the sensors would need to be cut from the epic/weapon yields.

But: maybe they found a way to use a S35 or larger Dragon sensor and scale the image down to 4K. Which would have two big advantages: S35 fov AND higher detail in the 4K image. Personally I'd always try to shoot at least 4.5k (an option I'm still missing for Scarlet) for a 4K delivery to gain a higher res 4k image.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

I was just walking my dog, and like about 50 crows landed in a tree above me and started to scream, now i know there are differences between crows and ravens, heck i don't know they could have been ravens.. just saying it was trippy, also have to admit i was thinking about what i can sell fast so my wife doesn't trip when i order a new red camera at the time...

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I would have bet on raven being an upgrade to Scarlet before, though I didn't know how to put 4K4all into that context. Now is raven still an upgrade? Not for a DSMC shooter it seems

The next big question now is: will raven be cheaper than Scarlet. Which at this point in time with 4K "only" I'd answer with a: highly likely.

But 4K@120fps is pretty damn cool and definitely worth a buck or two to me

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I wish we could take our current dragons and just change them into a weapon/raven body style... (Not interested in any of the weapon benefits except for the form factor) It would be a little disappointing that a lower end/cheaper camera can have the better body and not have that option for the current Dragons.

 

[Ryan Sauve]

I wish we could take our current dragons and just change them into a weapon/raven body style... (Not interested in any of the weapon benefits except for the form factor) It would be a little disappointing that a lower end/cheaper camera can have the better body and not have that option for the current Dragons.

Agreed

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Next time someone gets a free pass, can they ask the weight? Or the price? That would give us quite a bit of information to argue about and fuel tons of speculation.

:lurk5:

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Whatever it is -- it better be good

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I wish we could take our current dragons and just change them into a weapon/raven body style... (Not interested in any of the weapon benefits except for the form factor) It would be a little disappointing that a lower end/cheaper camera can have the better body and not have that option for the current Dragons.

I doubt there will be an EPIC path to RAVEN because RED is in the upgrade business, not the downgrade business. As a new release, RAVEN will invariably incorporate some new technology but will undoubtedly sacrifice resolution (which we know) and some functionality to be small. If RED is releasing their most-fully-featured-with-the-least-amount-of-weight camera, then his may actually be my dream-come-true documentary camera, so hoping it is affordable. By affordable, I hope for a $10K-12K package....if it is less than that, I will be extremely surprised. With SCARLET Dragon at $16.5K base, (and 20K base package deals) I really would not expect it to be much less than that.

Especially not if the Alexa Mini is the competition, at $35K - I think realistically that is who they are targeting, the lighter weight, smaller form factor drone market. And if the indie market likes it, so be it. I don't think RED is going to deviate from their philosophy of competing at the highest end. But they will expect to make some incidental sales at the lower end, if the camera can do double duty.

4.5K is an interesting possibility - especially with the Ursa 4.6K option coming soon - because even though I don't think RED is overtly trying to compete at the BlackMagic level, it would probably allow them to capture a bit more of that market, or at least give owners at that price point a good reason to consider RED - imagine if they made a $10K-12K package with a media card, a Redvolt + charger, and a monitor - that would be highly competitive with the next best thing, the Ursa 4.6K fully stripped at $5000 - if you could get a RED package, with proven, evolved technology in a super compact form factor, for just a coupla thousand more than you would need to trick out the Ursa, and ready to shoot out of the box with no extras required, hmmmmmm......

 

[Maik Müller]

I would have bet on raven being an upgrade to Scarlet before, though I didn't know how to put 4K4all into that context. Now is raven still an upgrade? Not for a DSMC shooter it seems

I no longer think it's a DSMC2.0-replacement for Scarlet-Dragon like i did when all this started. It looks like it's a different take. Goes a bit more into the direction of the original 3k-Scarlet-concept.

The next big question now is: will raven be cheaper than Scarlet. Which at this point in time with 4K "only" I'd answer with a: highly likely.

But 4K@120fps is pretty damn cool and definitely worth a buck or two to me

Yep, i agree to that. Those 120fps at 4k and a lighter WEAPON-tech body are great things and nearly sold me already. It's just "will it replace my Scarlet/D or not". Currently i think RAVEN will end up being my second RED cam.

If it's a MFT-ish sensor-cut then it comes hopefully with a MFT-mount to allow the usage of focal reducers and other toys.

I still hope the resolution is somewhere between 4k and 5k.

P.S. I made the joke about a 6k/5kto4k-scaling PRORES-only cam earlier, but honestly that doesn't make much sense and wouldn't look like something from RED. Why put a full sensor in those cams and then downscale. That would just take away the freedom and possibilities we have in post. There is nothing to gain for RED here, no cost-reduction.

PRORES only could make a cam cheaper and lighter, less power-hungry. But seriously, we are talking about RED and we all love REDRAW.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

For many of us, I will add, a RAVEN outright purchase might be a better fit than the Weapon upgrade, for a roughly similar price (if my guesses are accurate).

Would I take a 4K or 4.5K RAW camera which sheds the most possible weight over a Weapon with more new tech functions? And keep my EPIC, which I already love? An interesting conundrum! Keep my EPIC, add an OMOD, add a RAVEN sounds like a pretty happy outcome.

Much depends on what the RAVEN weight loss entails. I hope RED just kills the Alexa Mini. RAVEN eating Mini roadkill, that I'd like to see!

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Sadly I don't think anything red puts out will deter people who want arri products from buying them/renting them. Don't forget , films shot on the Alexa need a camera like the mini to compliment the project with gimbal/drone work.. Also many people still shoot on film with arri cameras, the Alexa line is the closest they will get to matching up. I've found people who love arri don't really go for red cams no matter how awesome they are. Maybe the weapon will change that but it's going to take some time, and maybe a few academy awards.
however for those thinking an Alexa mini will now make them an Alexa owner who cans shoot a whole movie on it would be MUCH better served to buy a weapon +raven for prob less than the mini...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

This is why a lot depends on weight. Alexa Mini is not a stealth camera. If RAVEN can be used as a stealth camera, in addition to serving as RED's drone camera, and also as an indie owner-op competitor - that will be a big deal and will attract a ton of users at its price point, assuming it clocks in for less than a SCARLET Dragon.

I do think RED is competing effectively with Alexa - someone is buying all those Forged Weapons that RED is working hard to manufacture, and it isn't just the indie crowd, not at its price point. Without the benefit of the upgrade.

The race is not exclusively about the image - as RED Weapon brings more efficiency to sets - as post-production gets moved to sets - it saves a ton of money. And that will be as important, if not more important than the Alexa's narrowing edge over image quality. I don't see Alexa stepping up to this challenge much, whereas groups like Offhollywood and LightIron (with Senor Cioni serving as a consultant on that Panasonic cam, which is specifically designed to pack as many post-production features into its camera, as possible) - these futuristic thinkers are building in new workflows which can be revolutionizing, in terms of cost. That may shift the tide more than the debate over image, where the gap has narrowed.

The scuttlebutt is that Arri is closer to film than RED. But I don't think that is necessarily the truth (though RED fights the uphill battle here, no doubt...). And that perception is certainly subject to change, as RED's color science continues to improve - This is a marathon, not a sprint, and the SHOT ON RED section gets bigger and bigger productions under its belt.

RED and NASA. Space in 8K. Dreamy. I don't think RED is Hollywood-dependent on its successes. Whereas Arri kinda is.....

 

[Matthew Quinn]

This is why a lot depends on weight. Alexa Mini is not a stealth camera. If RAVEN can be used as a stealth camera, in addition to serving as RED's drone camera, and also as an indie owner-op competitor - that will be a big deal and will attract a ton of users at its price point, assuming it clocks in for less than a SCARLET Dragon.

I do think RED is competing effectively with Alexa - someone is buying all those Forged Weapons that RED is working hard to manufacture, and it isn't just the indie crowd, not at its price point. Without the benefit of the upgrade.

The race is not exclusively about the image - as RED Weapon brings more efficiency to sets - as post-production gets moved to sets - it saves a ton of money. And that will be as important, if not more important than the Alexa's narrowing edge over image quality. I don't see Alexa stepping up to this challenge much, whereas groups like Offhollywood and LightIron (with Senor Cioni serving as a consultant on that Panasonic cam, which is specifically designed to pack as many post-production features into its camera, as possible) - these futuristic thinkers are building in new workflows which can be revolutionizing, in terms of cost. That may shift the tide more than the debate over image, where the gap has narrowed.

The scuttlebutt is that Arri is closer to film than RED. But I don't think that is necessarily the truth (though RED fights the uphill battle here, no doubt...). And that perception is certainly subject to change, as RED's color science continues to improve - This is a marathon, not a sprint, and the SHOT ON RED section gets bigger and bigger productions under its belt.

RED and NASA. Space in 8K. Dreamy. I don't think RED is Hollywood-dependent on its successes. Whereas Arri kinda is.....

completely agree. Blade Runner sounds like a huge deal for this, considering Mr. Deakins normally shoots on Arri Camera i think. They are shooting Blade Runner on RED WEAPON right?

 

[Andrew Rieger]

completely agree. Blade Runner sounds like a huge deal for this, considering Mr. Deakins normally shoots on Arri Camera i think. They are shooting Blade Runner on RED WEAPON right?

This is absolutely 100% not true. Don't trust IMDB tech specs. They haven't shot anything yet and rumor on the street is that they will be using the Alexa 65 for this. Hope this clears this up. There was a thread about this already but it was closed because it was a false rumor. Deakins is my favorite DP but they day he shoots RED is the day the sun doesn't rise. He's a die hard Arri guy through and through.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Fyi an Alexa mini is 70k ready to shoot when you add all the accessories up, weapon is that market segment not raven

 

[Brian Merlen]

Ps what if 4k refers to the upgrade price not the buying it new price?