#4K4ALL

[Shane Betts]

The Ursa Mini looks like a great deal. I particularly like the B4 option for those TV style jobs but it's only nearly a Scarlet. It wouldn't take much for Red to open up the ecosystem a bit so a cheap body could be set up with cheaper 3rd part kit. So many people have built entire careers on their Reds, it makes some sense to come in low, get folk hooked and upgrade them all the way to the moon. Keeping everything crossed. How many people here "couldn't afford" their Red One or Scarlet and are now in line for a Weapon upgrade?

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

Considering the new 4.7" RED Monitor shares the same ridged design, going to side with most people here on an extremely affordable RED body made of aluminum. Since it's only 4K, I'd think they could pull off up to 60 FPS (some slow motion), because I'm sure the tech is there to handle it nowadays. Locked Canon EF because the target market is indie Canon shooters anyway. Not really expecting an upgrade path to this body because it seems extremely minimal. As with the 4KForAll tag, I think it actually means 4K for both price and spec... Which most of the crowd seems to be assuming anyway.

Got to save some fun for IBC, right?

 

[Ryan Sauve]

My guess... Pretty much a R1MX repackaged in a Weapon form factor with fixed mount that uses the old QC'd MX sensors from the Epic to Dragon upgrade. 4.5k (for real 4k) for $4k.

And I think they figured out how to get a little more juice out of those sensors via a new OLPF and color science.

This would be rad to see released.

 

[Samir Patel]

As I think about this more knowing what I know about RED as a company I dont expect any repackaging of old tech. I am thinking we should be expecting newest sensor tech maybe with simpler ASICs. It makes all the sense to make a crash cam to accompany already existing dragons and weapons. Something those owners pickup to use on aerial gimbals which give you a unified edit. I can't tell you how many times I see a fantastic epic film and some cheap thrown in gopro aerial in the middle and upscalled. It looks like shit. Maybe this is the camera to alleviate that and to also give newcomers an entry into the ecosystem.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I'm thinking:

1. FF sensor with S35 4k. Dragon+Standard OLPF
2. ProRes HQ 10bit 422
3. CFast media module
4. EF-mount, fixed
5. 4.7" Touch Display
6. XL Module
7. Firmware unlock ($-$$$)
8. $8000

If RED goes low on price (4K4ALL) they will need to gracefully disable the camera.

I'm thinking a ProRes camera with CFast is the sweetspot gateway into the deeper RED system. A ProRes Dragon RED holds up very well to competing formats and it is the perfect blend of "accessible performance" while not being the holy Graal of professional compressed RAW. No one would confuse it with a Weapon or Epic Dragon, based on spec. But of course, skilled shooters would get nearly identical images with ProRes...

Consumer off-the-shelf media would make sense for a 4ALL camera. While RED wouldn't initially make money off it (but nothing stops them from providing "certified RED CFast cards"), they WOULD make money when everyone upgrades later: RED could take a page from Sony's playbook and offer firmware unlocks. They might require the SSD module as a mandatory extra. Money from firmware and SSD module for RED.

It should be a goal to create HAPPY new users, and I think it would be extraordinarily counter productive to seduce shooters with one set of specs only to have lots of hidden costs in the background.

In my opinion RED can't offer S35 4k, REDCode RAW at $8000 and then just up the fps and ask $35000.

Who--among BM, Canon and Sony shooters--wouldn't want S35 4k ProRes on CFast with RED branding, Dragon color and DR? RED could even offer modest cranking to 60fps.

I think this would be generous, modular, coherent and compatible. It would make sense for new and old shooters alike.

EDIT: based on my interpretation of 4ALL as being the BM/C100 crowd, not GH4 users.

 

[Trevor Meier]

I highly, highly doubt Red will ever take a step back by releasing a camera without R3D raw at its core.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

We'll see. They can't offer everything at wildly varying price points either. A camera that can be unlocked/upgraded makes sense to me. It's about getting a foot through the door.

Customers want to. And RED wants them to. But how?

 

[Brandon Kelly]

As a scarlet mx user already shooting 4k 30 fps, and I use a lot of 48fps 3k as it still looks great compared to, say, 2k, or well 1k, which is completely unusable in my opinion. I have had my camera for 3 years now and it has been great, and I think I got it almost 2 years after it had been released?

I could have paid 9500 to upgrade to scarlet d, which was more then my initial cost for the brain with ssd and canon mount, so that was a hard decision to stick with what I had, but I loved the image and was getting work with what I had.

For me to want to switch it would have to be something obviously better then my current scarlet mx. I would expect dragon sensor and color science. 4.5 k at 30fps, 4k at 60fps would be nice, 3k at ?. and a simplistic body design, which I am fine with as I shoot all canon mount lenses, and love the compactness combined with quality that red has offered me over the years.

I always try to keep up with the new camera tech coming out, and I'm always trying to decide weather the new sony, or whatever it is, is something that I want to replace my scarlet with. But I always end up sticking with my scarlet, and loving the image, workflow and community. But, I have been ready to upgrade for a while, and I am hoping this will be the camera to make that happen.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I dont think there will be any new tech here. No cfast media. No new sensor. Its most likely a very basic config of what already exists.

So I think Brandon is right: Dragon sensor at 4.5 or 4K. 30fps. 8:1 compression. 48fps at 3k. Weapon Body style (so owners can trade up and use existing accessories. And Weapon Mag/Carbon owners can also scale down and use this easily as a B/C cam).

The 128 media and new screen all starting to make sense now.

Im guessing body is 7k, ready to shoot package with monitor and 2 mags is $10k.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Time to sell ( re-sell ) that old Mx sensor at a current market realistic price in Epic/scarlet bodies . Everything is already engineered / designed no R&D just a proven concept now cheap. ( that still out specs a lot of the opposition) .

QuickTime only option is interesting .......but can they , would they ?

 

[Justus de Jager]

I dont think there will be any new tech here. No cfast media. No new sensor. Its most likely a very basic config of what already exists.

So I think Brandon is right: Dragon sensor at 4.5 or 4K. 30fps. 8:1 compression. 48fps at 3k. Weapon Body style (so owners can trade up and use existing accessories. And Weapon Mag/Carbon owners can also scale down and use this easily as a B/C cam).

The 128 media and new screen all starting to make sense now.

Im guessing body is 7k, ready to shoot package with monitor and 2 mags is $10k.

I will go for this. If it's a dragon, even with 4K/4.5K only at those frame rates. 90% of my work only needs those frame rates.

 

[Adam Rook]

I am the target Red is positioning this camera for. I'm the guy that wants a Red so badly my wife makes fun of me for how much time I spend on Reduser.net. I've told her that before I get a Red I will have to get something else fist to fill my need for 4K and better images so I can generate enough cash to drop on a Scarlet or Epic.
I have played with so many R3D files it's crazy and from that I know how much I love the format. The dynamic range of Dragon and shooting RAW are the two main reasons I'm so passionately pushing to get a Red.
I'm looking at an A7rii (I have my reasons) primarily because I love shooting RAW and S-Log2 (or S-Log3 w/ A7sii) is a great code and I love how it grades. RTS I'm looking at just under $4K. For me to be seduced by this new camera I would have to have:

Redcode to compete with S-Log2 or S-Log3
4K up to 60fps
2K up to 120fps
A monitor (The new 4.7" is fine)
Some sort of power even if it's a couple RedVolts
And I guess CFast
Plus some variation of Dragon. I love and need that highlight rollout and DR. Even if you throttle back Dragon to 14 stops.
The thing that will really tip the scale and have me jumping around my house like a lunatic would be if it was modular and gave me the ability to swap out accessories. Let me later on purchase the Mini Mags and side SSD. Let me be able to upgrade to a larger monitor. Give me the ability to add V-Lock batteries, the new side handle and all those other bells and whistles so that when that glorious day arrives and I do get my Epic or Weapon... I'm ready to shoot as soon as the UPS driver shows up to my door.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Well it comes down to the "4K4ALL". That really means 4K for all. Not 4K for professionals that can buy any camera they want. This camera will be affordable so that everyone can join the RED if they want. The market in 3k$ range is huge and it seems that RED wants piece of it.

Well this makes sense to me now.

But I think RED has another way of thinking about cinematography and arn't prompt to make the technical compromises to get a R3D camera shooting REAL 4k (5k debayer?) at this price point. But your thinking makes a lot of sense now.

Pat

PS: I still bet on a close to 9500.-- camera (package?).

 

[Adam Rook]

Guys just let me step my foot in the door. Give me Redcode and a Dragon for under $10k (closer to $5K would be amazing) and I WILL spend an extra 10k in accessories later down the road to kit that camera up and squeeze every bit of life from it I can. Then I WILL come back later and drop another $25K for an Epic or Weapon. And because I'll still have my lower-cost accessories I will then have a 2-Dragon setup.

 

[Ben Scott]

I dont think there will be any new tech here. No cfast media. No new sensor. Its most likely a very basic config of what already exists.

So I think Brandon is right: Dragon sensor at 4.5 or 4K. 30fps. 8:1 compression. 48fps at 3k. Weapon Body style (so owners can trade up and use existing accessories. And Weapon Mag/Carbon owners can also scale down and use this easily as a B/C cam).

The 128 media and new screen all starting to make sense now.

Im guessing body is 7k, ready to shoot package with monitor and 2 mags is $10k.

I see where that would fit in the Red ecosystem but in reality I don't think it is good enough for the market space it occupies. If it's not 4k at at least 60fps I'm not sure who will go for it even for $10,000, except people who already own a Red.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

My guess is like a lot of you:

-Dragon sensor

-4k

-S35

-30fps max

-7k$

which is more than enough for a lot of people out there (me including).. Be ready to see some price cut in the Epic/Scarlet range..

Concerning the announcement, what are your thoughts guys? When will that happen?

People at IBC, give us some fresh news guys, don't be selfish!

 

[Matthew Quinn]

I am the target Red is positioning this camera for. I'm the guy that wants a Red so badly my wife makes fun of me for how much time I spend on Reduser.net. I've told her that before I get a Red I will have to get something else fist to fill my need for 4K and better images so I can generate enough cash to drop on a Scarlet or Epic.
I have played with so many R3D files it's crazy and from that I know how much I love the format. The dynamic range of Dragon and shooting RAW are the two main reasons I'm so passionately pushing to get a Red.
I'm looking at an A7rii (I have my reasons) primarily because I love shooting RAW and S-Log2 (or S-Log3 w/ A7sii) is a great code and I love how it grades.

This is what i was talking about earlier, getting these cameras into more hands is a very good thing. Most of the Feature work i do deals with budgets of 200k-600k many times we need to hire crew who has the passion but not the experience when it comes to basic RED concepts at the same time many clients do not understand me when i start talking about R3D files or other aspects about My Camera . Many of these people have experience with DSLRs, or Other small cameras but it would make things go much easier on set if everyone got on the same page. At the same time i have been struggling to explain to people that it doesn't make sense for me to use my fancy red camera to shoot any old thing for any old price...as a result i have been doing a lot of work with my GH4 + Speedbooster and leaving the Dragon for big jobs with insurance etc.

It would be amazing to get more people familiar with the way RED works, get them trained, and get them to respect what they are dealing with when it comes to the high end models (Weapon).. I'm a strong believer that this industry is about people, not equipment, if this camera delivers at a reasonable price that's a move for the people. In turn more people will have the knowledge to help the rest of us create.

 

[Ben Scott]

I am the target Red is positioning this camera for. I'm the guy that wants a Red so badly my wife makes fun of me for how much time I spend on Reduser.net. I've told her that before I get a Red I will have to get something else fist to fill my need for 4K and better images so I can generate enough cash to drop on a Scarlet or Epic.
I have played with so many R3D files it's crazy and from that I know how much I love the format. The dynamic range of Dragon and shooting RAW are the two main reasons I'm so passionately pushing to get a Red.
I'm looking at an A7rii (I have my reasons) primarily because I love shooting RAW and S-Log2 (or S-Log3 w/ A7sii) is a great code and I love how it grades. RTS I'm looking at just under $4K. For me to be seduced by this new camera I would have to have:

Redcode to compete with S-Log2 or S-Log3
4K up to 60fps
2K up to 120fps
A monitor (The new 4.7" is fine)
Some sort of power even if it's a couple RedVolts
And I guess CFast
Plus some variation of Dragon. I love and need that highlight rollout and DR. Even if you throttle back Dragon to 14 stops.
The thing that will really tip the scale and have me jumping around my house like a lunatic would be if it was modular and gave me the ability to swap out accessories. Let me later on purchase the Mini Mags and side SSD. Let me be able to upgrade to a larger monitor. Give me the ability to add V-Lock batteries, the new side handle and all those other bells and whistles so that when that glorious day arrives and I do get my Epic or Weapon... I'm ready to shoot as soon as the UPS driver shows up to my door.

I doubt very very much that Red is going to release something that does 4k 60fps at $4,000.

My background and the angle I'm coming to this with...

I was that guy too and worked my arse off to be able to purchase a Scarlet-MX. The day I went to pick it up at Pinewood Studios was one of the most exciting of my life. I couldn't have been happier. Spent a ton of money getting it ready to shoot - often replacing the cheap budget parts that failed with the standard absurdly overpriced stuff inside a couple of month, and I shot some of the best footage I've ever gotten with Leeloo Dallas Multipass, to give her her full name .

All of which is a wonderful story but the problem was one of simple economics. People that were doing dslr-type shoots couldn't afford the camera - even with me doing a deal - and people that could afford the camera could afford the little bit extra and hire an Epic and then Dragon instead. And so I had this amazing camera capable of great images that nobody wanted to rent. And I wasn't in a position to be able to have a Red sitting there not making money. Add to that for a lot of jobs is was too heavy and unwieldy for small crew stuff - example was me 1-man band shooting car videos at a race circuit and having to run across the other side of the track 50 times all day was an absolute killer and slowed down production. I'd say it took 2 years for it to pay itself off, and I'm not entirely sure it ever truly did.

I was going to upgrade to Epic but then Dragon came out and I knew economically I'd STILL be in the same position where people who could afford Epic could afford Dragon so I'd have sunk MORE money into a black hole and at the time my career was very much boom or bust on a month but month basis. So instead I sold the Scarlet whilst it still had some value, bought myself a (then just released) brand new Sony FS7 and told myself one day I'd be able to buy a new 'top' Red, or at least buy one that I didn't have to depend on rentals to work with.

That FS7 paid for itself in 2 months and has done so many times over now - and continues to do so a year after release. Small, light, 4k 60fps, 180fps internal 1080p recording. 240fps raw with the Odyssey 7Q. Great images and flexibility with slgamut3.cine / slog3. Not so expensive you're terrified of anyone touching it. Can be used for docs/shorts/promos/corporates/live streaming.


The only two things I'd say the Scarlet had over the FS7 was outright image quality, and redcode. Both of which mean a lot more if working for yourself as opposed to working on the tier of production these cameras both operate in where C100 and C300 were the standard.

I've still have the goal of getting back into Red but it has to make economic sense to do so. In my head I feel give me what the FS7 does but with Red image quality and redcode (at least 6:1 - which was what I shot BBC docs at so is absolutely fit for purpose) for $10,000-15,000 ready to shoot (UK Prices will be sooo much higher than this but I digress) and I can sell that as a rental to the marketplace in a certain sphere of production. Happy to use an external recorder for pro res or similar.

Give me less than that and it becomes a very hard sell and becomes a thing to just own for its own sake of being a Red-owner. Which was nice but it didn't pay the bills for me.

Anyway them's my thoughts of someone who is waiting with baited breath for more details...

 

[Freya]

m43 would be very unfortunate, I hope for S35 at least. Not that I will buy this camera, but for those who will

43
They just mean the mount and not the sensor size.
There are already S35 cameras with a M43 mount.

Freya

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Renting the camera is not as important to me as keeping constancy when it comes to my client base. People know the price of my dragon package, many times they opt to shoot with my GH4 due to budget constraints. I would much rather show up to all my gigs holding a RED CAM what ever the budget. This camera makes me think this could be my new B CAM, or tool i use when I'm worried about my Epic Dragon's safety (Drones/Car Rigs).

on a side note, i think it's silly to think that this camera will use something other than the RED MINI MAGS.. 120GB RED MINI MAGS were just announced... you think this is for the Weapon Users?? hehe

This camera looks like it has the SSD built in, so as far as accessories, im thinking 1-2 120 GB MINI MAGS, Top & Bottom plates from wooden camera, 2 V-Mount batteries, an IPAD with Foolcontrol loaded on it to replace the need for a RED touchscreen display, and like a nice 5-7 inch monitor (maybe the SmallHD 502). I just did a bit of rough math and those accessories will cost about $4,819. prob need to add some dollars for cables and a MAG reader, the new rumors about G-Drive thunderbolt MINI MAG reader sounds promising.

Getting the new 4.7 RED touchscreen and losing the IPAD Foolcontrol, and Small HD puts you closer to $4300 for accessories for a basic set up.

at any rate these numbers alone tell me this camera is NOT going to cost under 3k -_- not matter what the BRAIN costs

one of my big questions is will it have WiFi built in??!! please dear god please