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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K Televisions

Scott Brown said:
PS3 was a big part of early Bluray HD adoption - PS4 will be 4K ready for sure and I'm betting H.265 will become the 4K distribution format of choice.

Just remember what we all paid for the first batch of full HD 1080p TV's and look at how quickly costs dropped - 4K will go the same way but I suspect much more quickly!

Scott
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4K is the new thing since the failure of 3d. It's getting a big push, and is even going to appear on phones!! :shocked:

H.265 is in the final stages of being ironed out and is going to be the key technology behind 4K

4K is coming in a big way and will probably actually be something of an easy sell to consumers once prices come down in the sense that it will just be another TV only this one is an even higher number than 1080p! I mean how many people with 1080p actually have them connected to any 1080p content, yet they still have the screens.

We shall have to see tho!

Freya
 
You know, somewhere somebody mentioned 4k being the new thing, and I was going to point out the first commercial 4k monitor I knew of was in the early 80's, might even still have a practical computing magazine article on it. I thought I must had been remembering wrong and it was an 4mp 2k unit, but somebody around here mentioned it too.

It is all nonsense anyway, I've had a design proposal for years that could produce a 4 or 8k display for less than $100, for retail less than $500. But no financial support to do it. A lot of this stuff is tricky, but if you rewrite the way it is done you can get more advances. I'm currently got an 4k+ (8k+) electro wetting display public project proposal I'm looking at publishing. You want to see prices tumble, when they realise that talented individuals can make their own displays for a fraction of the cost, not too mention every third world manufacturer. This is not the design I mentioned before, it is not as good but more straight forward for individuals.
 
Wayne Morellini said:
You know, somewhere somebody mentioned 4k being the new thing, and I was going to point out the first commercial 4k monitor I knew of was in the early 80's, might even still have a practical computing magazine article on it. I thought I must had been remembering wrong and it was an 4mp 2k unit, but somebody around here mentioned it too.

It is all BS anyway, I've got a design proposal for years that could produce a 4 or 8k display for less than $100, for retail less than $500. But no financial support to do it. A lot of this stuff is tricky, but if you rewrite the way it is done you can get more advances. I'm currently got an 4k+ (8k+) electro wetting display public project proposal I'm looking at publishing. You want to see prices tumble, when they realise that talented individuals can make their own displays for a fraction of the cost, not too mention every third world manufacturer. This is not the design I mentioned before, it is not as good but more straight forward for individuals.
Click to expand...

Why not do a kick starter project to get your display funded. It could go off if you can pre sell $500 4k displays. I am in.
 
Just something else to take a quick look at:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451256/4k-uhd-tvs-at-ces-2013

__________________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Bettie Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8
 
Les Dittert said:
Rob,
The TV sets have 11520 discreet Red Green and blue 'pixels' across. ( 3840 times 3 ) .
They can display actual 3840 stuff easily, and you can see it if you are close enough. ( a magnifying glass helps ! )
Projectors will overlap the RG and B 'dots' because they are made that way, but they are also prone to optical aberrations and color convergence issues as well.
Projectors have a harder time displaying actual 4k because they are not direct view devices. They are subject to the quality of the optics throwing the image to the screen.

I prefer projectors for movie watching. Monitors for working.
Click to expand...

My point was more related to my hunger for "carefully shot" 4K footage, and finished in 4K, too, as I have been disappointed in most of what I have seen so far, including theatrical releases. But I am hopeful that better days are coming.

Not exactly sure of the TV/projector points you are making, but I think I disagree with at least two of them. I certainly do hope that being able to see more resolution will help lift the quality and detail of the footage being brought to the screen, whether by TV, evaluation monitor, or projector. I just think larger screens make things more obvious, and projectors can more easily do larger screens. Jim J. has called his 40' screen "the widow maker". Artifacts and edge detail softness go there to die, because they have nowhere to hide on a screen that size. I am pretty sure that screen size is helping drive the pursuit of Dragon.

Regarding color convergence, depending on pixel array, the 11520 TV pixels (same number as with a projector for 16:9 sources: 3840x3 horizontal) are displaying at least 1 and perhaps 2 pixel errors in convergence at all times, since none of the pixels overlap, so I am not clear on what you mean by "easily" as opposed to a projector. There is no correction in the sets for those convergence errors as they are part of the structure.

However, the only true 4K home theater projector currently available (from Sony), with 4096x3 H pixels available, has convergence correction down to 1/10 pixel, addressable in 153 separate zones across the screen, so the projector is at no disadvantage there. It can beat a 1 or 2 pixel error easily.

There is also less space between pixels, so the structure is less visible, and the images are smoother. This becomes more important the larger the image, and the closer the viewing. Some have said they think it is the ideal combination of the smoothness of film and the sharpness of video. But that depends on the type of display panel.

Regarding lenses, optical errors can exist, and ability to resolve smaller dot sizes is essential, so a higher standard is required for 4K, and such lenses as found in a good 4K projector like the Sony have to be better than 1080P lenses to deliver 4K detail as it should be seen. The optics need to be good enough to allow fine detail contrast (high adjacent area contrast) down to about 4 microns, while most 1080P lenses can only resolve somewhere between 8 and 11 micron dots, or worse.

Why is 4K easier for direct view? Because things you can hide on a TV can't be hid on larger screens? But that should mean the standards for projector video need to be better to start with. From my experience, a good projector is the best way to view pretty much anything given theater (dark) conditions. Unless we are talking about OLED evaluation monitors, which are about as good as it gets (freaking gorgeous!), and far from cheap. I would like to see evaluation grade 4K projectors, and there has been some hope expressed in these forums that the RR projector will be capable of that. I hope so, too.

Rob McD.
 
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Todd Jones said:
Why not do a kick starter project to get your display funded. It could go off if you can pre sell $500 4k displays. I am in.
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I'm starting to think about it Tod, but for something else. Been seeing some of the things they are doing. Other technologies might not be able to beat this design, but I think electro wetting and printable displays, maybe blue phase LCD and others I have not looked into, will be cheap enough in price after mass production to prove difficult to ramp up production of my design itself. Things are not as easy as it seems, at anytime, Red could have contacted me over the years to look into this. At the moment I've come up with a holographic mechanism and am considering it as a project, but it may well be too difficult to implement on this design. There are a few fundamental problems with holographic TV over the years that I realised I could bust with some ideas from another older design. I could try to compete with 4k or one up them. The reality is that I then have a combined cheaper holo mechanism, this where you can pull ahead of the competition enough to succeed. Another issue is handling volumetric data, see the following.

I'm more concentrating on my computing developments. But it is one of the more obvious opportunities, maybe after, or during this. The community I'm in, I could open up an open source initiative around my core work, and attract high quality support software (applications and extra drivers). I have a big strategy in mind. Maybe when I get the core product done I will consider kick starter. Money is a real restriction, as is collaboration. One problem with my original designs was I redesigned the ways to do everything, which meant millions of dollers of patents straight up. With the new distributed mass parallel processing system, I restricted the amount of patentable work down, but there are still a number of patents. The more I refine it the more original improvements. To do products is extra expenses. I've done something like up to 20k of mostly original innovations. So, that is a big kick starter campaign, but been thinking of opportunities with IBM or Google. The reality is, that I'd rather control it to use 90% of the profit on charity and practical social development rather than give 90% of the profit to a multi national. Have to remember that if I walk past Bill Gates again.

I've come up with the leading volumetric graphic system design 15 years ago (when you design around an computer operating system, you design basically everything) after a leading vector drawing idea the year before (still been refining it). The mass parallel processing system above is to be used with the volumetric system , so is a pre-development of the display (it is meant for computer use after all).

Despite what people say, to see and know the future, is potential to have the future.

-

Hmm, the electro wetting display would be fun on kick starter, unless there are patent issues.
 
I am not sure that 4K projectors qualify as being on topic for this thread, but I think that it is interesting that pricing has come from what I think was the first "home theater" 4K projector from Meridian at something like $220,000 a few years ago down to $50K and $25K from Sony, and now, or I should say "soon?" $10K from RED.

And now a host of 4K (or at least QFHD) TVs at prices as low as $2K to $2.5K for 50" models.

One 110" 4K TV was estimated at $300,000 (probably not commercially) by Westinghouse.

Smaller 4K TVs are becoming affordable. Projectors are still likely to keep winning the price per inch value race for larger screens. 120" is a sweet home theater size if you have the space.

Rob McD.
 
Sony are really going mad for 4k now. I guess they suspect they are onto a winner and a great new way to sell lots of TV's!
They are opening a new 4k post production centre in Culver City:

http://www.redsharknews.com/post/item/392-sony-pictures-opens-4k-post-production-facility

Not sure if that will be just for stuff shot on Sony cameras. I assume not as that new Spiderman film was made by Sony and was shot on EPIC so I expect they won't care if it's shot on Red or Sony just as long as it helps sell Sony TV's?

Suddenly everything Sony does seems to be about 4k and there are a lot of other industry companies that take their lead from Sony, so it is definitely finally going to get interesting on the 4k front! :)

It's a bit strange as a lot of the technology to do this has been around a while as someone was suggesting earlier in the thread but it's probably good that it is happening now because the technology will be better and more developed now it is here.

Personally I think it's going to be a positive thing, even if the average consumer can't afford the huge screens, I think it should take us all down a better path one way or another. :)

Freya
 
That is for TV shows. Sony's Film post facilities have been 4K end-to-end capable for a few years now and have been used for their films.
 
Rob McDonough said:
I am not sure that 4K projectors qualify as being on topic for this thread, but I think that it is interesting that pricing has come from what I think was the first "home theater" 4K projector from Meridian at something like $220,000 a few years ago down to $50K and $25K from Sony, and now, or I should say "soon?" $10K from RED.

And now a host of 4K (or at least QFHD) TVs at prices as low as $2K to $2.5K for 50" models.

One 110" 4K TV was estimated at $300,000 (probably not commercially) by Westinghouse.

Smaller 4K TVs are becoming affordable. Projectors are still likely to keep winning the price per inch value race for larger screens. 120" is a sweet home theater size if you have the space.

Rob McD.
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They should be able to do 4k projectors for $500, using an Arm or PC engine. Until then, I have several red ray projectors, you can buy them at the $2 shop (Laser pointers) ;).
 
Volume.
 
L. Langer said:
That is for TV shows. Sony's Film post facilities have been 4K end-to-end capable for a few years now and have been used for their films.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with TV shows? I like TV shows!!!! You no like Game of Thrones?

Freya
 
Todd Jones said:
Why not do a kick starter project to get your display funded. It could go off if you can pre sell $500 4k displays. I am in.
Click to expand...

Todd, you might be in luck. I have just been speaking to a friend about kickstarter and realised something. Recently I had a revelation about going back to grass roots in my projects, and realised there were opportunities in the products I was looking at nearly ten years ago. I realised I have a very simple product for kick starter that can help move towards better and better iterations of products, like higher resolution projectors when they are affordable. I am looking into doing a cheap laser like projector. Not a TV set yet though.

I will have to have a good think about it, as I am writing a book and starting a music festival (which is becoming almost self running) with my health improvements. The projector can work as part of the simple 3rd world computer project which was scheduled after the book.

I'll be covering this over in my touch table thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...able-project&p=1151690&viewfull=1#post1151690
 
Looks like the BBC are now going to start adopting 4k!!

No details on the cameras to be used yet tho I would assume they would be using something with a live 4k output!
More details here:

Article Here

Would be great to see the BBC really get on board with 4k one day but for now this can only be good news for those hoping for a 4k TV future!

Freya
 
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