4K Monitors...

[M Most]

There has never been a better time to introduce 4K delivery than this year IMO. Traditional TV broadcasting is a dying model. MMost make some good points - and they are true for "status quo" - this year and next year there will be much disruption as content delivery models shift.

Things change. And change accelerates.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsav...y-finds-traditional-tv-viewing-is-collapsing/

An interesting article. However, unless I'm missing something, what that article indicates is that mobile viewing, on small devices, is absorbing a lot of that attrition. Which goes completely against the argument for huge screens and 4K delivery. hmy:

 

[danbrazda]

An interesting article. However, unless I'm missing something, what that article indicates is that mobile viewing, on small devices, is absorbing a lot of that attrition. Which goes completely against the argument for huge screens and 4K delivery. hmy:

Not really. People are still flocking to theatres to see films and IMHO always will. It's all about choices. On one end of the spectrum you have a 4K theatre with a 100' screen and on the other end you have the smart phone. 4K+ acquisition covers the whole spectrum while 1080P doesn't.

 

[Ido Karilla]

Well I need an advice!

We are establishing the first grading room in Israel that will have a projector.

With all the developments and debates over 2K vs 4k, and bearing in mind our provincial budgets and the very trendy film industry around.

Which projector would you choose.

The projection room is going to be 6 meter wide and 9 meter long.

Thanks.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

An interesting article. However, unless I'm missing something, what that article indicates is that mobile viewing, on small devices, is absorbing a lot of that attrition. Which goes completely against the argument for huge screens and 4K delivery. hmy:

My point is that things are changing. Small devices are a big factor for sure - but - more importantly - is that people want VOD. Streaming. Think streaming movies, or shows on 4K RedRay - on demand. Play at your home on a 4K TV or with a 4K projector.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If the show is good, it won't matter.

Correction... "If the show is good, it won't matter..." as much. :smiley:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Increased resolution is inevitable, this was obvious (or I would think it was) way before HD even got off the ground. I'm not sure I understand the attitudes and mindset that resist. All the current arguments against 4K are the same tired and crap arguments we saw against HD in the 90s.

4K is still just a stepping stone, but it's a monumental one. It's one where we are matching, and in many cases surpassing, the level of detail presented by 35mm cinematic film. I'm sure we'll have the same arguments all over again when 8K delivery arrives or 12K or whatever the next major jump happens to be. Resistance to 4K is relatively light compared to what we faced with HD and I'm betting to move beyond 4K will involve a bigger fight... Just a hunch.

With all that, 4K or QHD displays are EVERYWHERE at CES. Looks like it's the theme for this year's show and none of the technical rags have figured that out yet. I'm not at CES this year, but my ninja spy network is feeding me quite a bit already, even before the exhibits open.

One thing to watch out for with the first crop of "4K" or "QuadHD" displays this year and it's a real gotcha... Not all of them accept 4K or QHD input! A good portion of them are only using all the extra pixels for passive 3D use. Many (or most) of the 4K displays do extra internal processing to up-scale and further "enhance" the image. So if you don't think your 1080p is over-processed and over-sharpened enough, then these guys have a solution for you!

Seems like LG, Toshiba and Sharp are the front-runners of the 4K pack. Lots of talk over the Toshiba 55" glasses-free TV, but I'm just not finding a way to be interested in that one. I just want a 54" to 60" with good blacks and good color range that I can drive at QHD or 4K via a RED Rocket or upcoming RED RAY player.

My ninjas haven't been able to confirm yet and will have to wait for the exhibits, but it looks like a couple manufacturers will be announcing 4K projectors targeted at high end home theatre enthusiasts. Word on the street is both DLP and laser solutions. I'm expecting EPSON to be one of these with a 4K DLP since TI showed their 4K DMD system ready for production at CES last year.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I have just 3 things to add...

1. Agree with Mike, proprietary hardware playback requirement makes things tricky if RedRay is going to be more than a niche product.

Why does RED always end up competing with nVidia and AMD... instead of Sony and Arri? Seriously, I want my R3Ds to play back on my GPU and I would like RedRay to play back on my GPU if I feel like it. nVidia and AMD make cheap chips that could do this today. Why doesn't RED want to let them do their job? WTF.

If RED wants to make a truly mass-market 4K playback format... I think that it will need to work on PS4, on PCs, on Xbox, on set-top devices... everything.

By the time that most consumers have 4K monitors and data rates sufficient for 4K playback (a few years).. I think that 4K video will be playable on any modern GPU. Seems like a tough sell for RED to convince them to buy another piece of hardware... when they already have a 4K Netflix or HBO or whatever app sitting on the device they've already bought?

Maybe RED can sell their chips and get them integrated into set-top boxes? If so, awesome, but I imagine that the window of opportunity is closing fast. Because by the time that 4K hits mainstream, there will be a ton of competing chips that can do 4K playback and don't require a proprietary ecosystem.

2. Has RED talked about a better color space standard yet? 709 sucks.

If RED is going to all the trouble of building a dedicated hardware 4K playback device, plus a projector that has frikkin' lasers (laser projectors have an extremely wide color gamut)... YOU ARE CREATING BOTH ENDS OF THE PRESENTATION PLATFORM AND DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY. THIS IS IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY. Why the hell don't they allow not just 709 but also a wide-gamut color space for projects mastered that way?

Either have two separate encodes... or have a 709 encode... and some compressed "wide-gamut" data per pixel that modifies the values if wide gamut is turned on.

Why not just use NHK's SHV color space - it matches laser primaries well - and then all of those 4K masters and 4K RedRays will look good on those future 8K TVs too:

Then you can sell all of the post houses your projector because they need to master wide-gamut stuff AND you can sell it as future-proof to the SHV color gamut.

I know RED hates standards... but this just seems idiotic not to do

3. Personally, I really would like RedRay to succeed. Even if it's just a high-income, discerning niche audience. For a filmmaker, I will not sneeze at a high-income discerning niche audience because I can probably sell them content for more money. They invested a five-figure sum in their home entertainment system. I don't think they're going to complain too much about paying a few dollars more for my movie, especially if it allows them to show off their cool setup to their friends.

But yeah... I don't think that discerning niche audience is going to like having colors limited to 709. Just me.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have just 3 things to add...

1. Agree with Mike, proprietary hardware playback requirement makes things tricky if RedRay is going to be more than a niche product.

Why does RED always end up competing with nVidia and AMD... instead of Sony and Arri? Seriously, I want my R3Ds to play back on my GPU and I would like RedRay to play back on my GPU if I feel like it. nVidia and AMD make cheap chips that could do this today. Why doesn't RED want to let them do their job? WTF.

In some ways I agree, others I don't... If RED remains in control, they are not at the mercy of differing GPU architectures and API implementations. Current GPUs can't even standardize numerical precision across family platforms within the CUDA, OpenCL or even OpenGL APIs... Let alone keep everything a 100% match between brands. This is fine and great for games and even fine most of the time for 3D content creation, modeling, etc.. But there is no way to guaranty 100% consistent results across multiple GPU types and driver/API implementations for any serious color or image processing. Jeebus, we can't even guaranty edge accuracy in ProE or SolidWorks between Quadro families and we can't update to the latest drivers without first getting a thumbs up that it doesn't change rounding in precision. This really isn't RED's problem, it's the state of the GPU industry and it sucks. I would be all for a GPU solution within the post production pipeline once nVidia, ATI, PowerVR and Intel all sit down at the same table and get their collective shit into the same bag. Results can be guaranteed between GPU lines, but only if the time is taken to profile each GPU and driver set and make the proper adjustments. But RED is at the mercy of the GPU makers every time a new API update or driver release comes along... Current GPUs are actually not well suited for wavelet operations, that's actually best left to CPUs, but GPUs excel at processing pixel or bayer-pattern data. OTOH, I bet a proper implementation on a current model GPU card, think GeForce GTX580 as a reference point, would easily keep pace with a RED Rocket, maybe even outperform it, even if handling layered wavelet operations. We also have to consider one other limitation of current GPUs -- data output or feedback to the host system. Most all current GPUs completely suck at this. They excel in creating visual data to be placed on your screen. They suck at taking that visual data and sending it back onto the PCIe bus.

If RED wants to make a truly mass-market 4K playback format... I think that it will need to work on PS4, on PCs, on Xbox, on set-top devices... everything.

Very much in agreement here. But we're talking about delivery codecs now and not post pipeline. The more platforms they can implement a REDRAY player system on, the better. Given all my gripes above, I think the current state of GPUs makes them best used for delivery to end user displays. Excellent for playback of finished and deliverable content, nothing more.

By the time that most consumers have 4K monitors and data rates sufficient for 4K playback (a few years).. I think that 4K video will be playable on any modern GPU. Seems like a tough sell for RED to convince them to buy another piece of hardware... when they already have a 4K Netflix or HBO or whatever app sitting on the device they've already bought?

That's the kicker. Youtube is 4K now -- it sucks, but it's 4K. Netflix is moving that direction, so are HBO on-demand, DirecTV and others. While some do require a piece of hardware, it's not always unique hardware -- Netflix can play on almost anything these days, same with HBO. DirecTV of course needs their hardware, but that's also how many get broad TV service, and yet DirecTV subscribers can now watch their on-demand services on other devices -- iOS, etc..

For mass-market appeal, a REDRAY delivery system can't be locked into a purpose-specific device. That model is strained right now and will probably not work at all within the next year or two. This is why the best-selling Blu-Ray player remains the PS3. Why most disc players also handle Netflix and other services.

Maybe RED can sell their chips and get them integrated into set-top boxes? If so, awesome, but I imagine that the window of opportunity is closing fast. Because by the time that 4K hits mainstream, there will be a ton of competing chips that can do 4K playback and don't require a proprietary ecosystem.

Yep. Most manufacturers seem to be a lot more on the ball with 4K than they were with HD. 4K content is going to be plentiful by the time most consumers get around to buying that 4K TV. I think when we'll see the massive consumer migration to 4K TV's start happening will be one year from now. The first years' models will be on discount and all those people looking to have that hot new TV set for their Super Bowl party will go shopping. RED could conceivably produce their own "4K playback chip" or whatever to incorporate into other devices and it could work well for them if they get it to market soon -- like RIGHT NOW!!! and if it were priced low enough to be economically viable. Either way, any such dedicated hardware is going to be short-lived. The RED Rocket and other such accelerator cards or any dedicated "4K chipset" is going to go the same way as all other dedicated hardware processing before this time... Straight into obsolescence oblivion; right alongside dedicated playback chips for MPEG-2 and MPEG audio and all the other little hardware assist devices that have come and gone to act as a crutch for the several months where PC's just couldn't quite do it on their own. By this time next year, we will be yet another iteration of desktop-class CPUs and desktop-class chipsets down the road, 15% on average more power per watt than the current models, which are 15% faster than the previous... A properly tuned desktop system can play bak 4K video now just fine. A performance console like the upcoming PS4 will be able to do it just fine... Selling a dedicated 4K playback device, dedicated to one brand or type of media, is not going to be a hit with consumers. Wheras a 4K playback box that plays REDRAY, 4K Netflix, 4K YouTube and 4K VUDU could just be the killer app for spendy holiday shoppers and home theatre geeks later this year.

2. Has RED talked about a better color space standard yet? 709 sucks.

This NEEDS to happen. 709 does suck. There are other "standardized" color spaces out there, but it doesn't seem like anyone can agree on which one should be THE ONE. Once again because most are purpose-specific or championed by one industry segment or manufacturer. I had not thought about NHK's spec, you make a compelling argument there.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Stills guys used AdobeRGB for all their raw needs for years because there were few if any means of outputting anything wider. Now, since I have a printer that can actually print colors
that fall outside the Adobe RGB space, I most often use the much larger "ProPhoto" space. But, with stills, it is easy to switch from image to image as is required: if colors fit comfortably
in Adobe RGB, then there is little point in spreading them across the wider Pro Photo.

How does this work in film when, say, the majority of a movie's imagery is easily contained within the likes of 709?
What happens when these clips are (unnecessarily) stretched over the larger color space? How does one space fit all???

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The mistake Red makes many times, is going custom hardware, by the time you get it finished somebody has upgraded programmable processing hardware. There is plenty of cheap quality short term gains to be had by using programmable processing hardware, like modern GPU's. So in even Arm related GPU's should be able to decode Redray. Encoding might require a cheap PC with descent GPU's. These are only guesstimates. While current xbox and PS might not do it, next generation versions might.

Perhaps RED would only keep the compression algorithm proprietary, but only charge miniscule amounts to manufacturers wanting to sell products that used it. Miniscule being the operative word, so that EVERYTHING uses it. Manufacturers and consumers don't even feel it, but RED gets 7 billion pennies to fund R&D, all while FIXING distribution.

And on the subject of small portable screens: This shift doesn't go against 4k. People will watch shows where they want and can. If they are bored out of their mind waiting at the DMV and can't find anything else that peaks their interest, nothing else that seems worth their time and hard-earned money, then they might go ahead and watch "that great movie I've been dying to see" on their phone, knowing full well it won't be as great of an experience as it would be at home on their big 4k setup --certainly nowhere close to how great of an experience it would be in at the 4k movie theater.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Just got sent a pic of an "Ultrabook" PC from CES. Running pre-release Windows 8 and it has a Hi-DPI screen (IGZO - In-Glass-Zero-Offset). 13.5" 16:9 screen with a pixel resolution of 2720x1530.

IGZO screens are what are rumored to be used in the upcoming iPad 3 and Macbook Air releases. Not clear if the system I was sent a picture of is a real product or just a "hey, look what we can make" prototype.

1080p is on life support...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

There are so many 4K monitors (TVs) being released that we can hardly keep track. I wonder what that means to shows shot on 1080P?

Jim

Uprezzing?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Uprezzing?

sad... but true...

One thing to watch out for with the first crop of "4K" or "QuadHD" displays this year and it's a real gotcha... Not all of them accept 4K or QHD input! A good portion of them are only using all the extra pixels for passive 3D use. Many (or most) of the 4K displays do extra internal processing to up-scale and further "enhance" the image. So if you don't think your 1080p is over-processed and over-sharpened enough, then these guys have a solution for you!

 

[Stuart English]

And on the subject of small portable screens: This shift doesn't go against 4k. People will watch shows where they want and can. If they are bored out of their mind waiting at the DMV and can't find anything else that peaks their interest, nothing else that seems worth their time and hard-earned money, then they might go ahead and watch "that great movie I've been dying to see" on their phone, knowing full well it won't be as great of an experience as it would be at home on their big 4k setup --certainly nowhere close to how great of an experience it would be in at the 4k movie theater.

And the other point IMHO is that broadcast & cable channels seem to be doing their utmost to make the movie viewing experience as disrupted and unenjoyable as it can possibly be... when monthly cable rates are what they are, no wonder customers are exploring alternatives...

 

[Jay Birch]

I just watched "Black Swan".... I don't care if we are watching 8K, 3D holographic images in 20 years.... I will still enjoy such a piece of art.

4K is cool and all, but don't obsess about specs and numbers.... create art.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Stills guys used AdobeRGB for all their raw needs for years because there were few if any means of outputting anything wider. Now, since I have a printer that can actually print colors
that fall outside the Adobe RGB space, I most often use the much larger "ProPhoto" space. But, with stills, it is easy to switch from image to image as is required: if colors fit comfortably
in Adobe RGB, then there is little point in spreading them across the wider Pro Photo.

How does this work in film when, say, the majority of a movie's imagery is easily contained within the likes of 709?
What happens when these clips are (unnecessarily) stretched over the larger color space? How does one space fit all???

If you convert from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto, you shouldn't be "stretching the colors". A proper conversion would not change how the image looks at all, because every color you can hit in the Adobe RGB space, you can also hit in the ProPhoto space.

If a film's imagery is perfectly contained in 709 then you just convert to SHV space without stretching the colors when you're making your RedRay master.

However, a lot of films are mastered in P3 space... and do contain colors that are not in the 709 space. When they make the Blu-Ray version, those colors get or futzed with to make a nice 709 master (not necessarily a hard clip - eg you could roll off the color...).

But if you wanted to make a RedRay 4K file in the SHV color space, you go back to the original P3 master and convert those colors to SHV space.

Good news is that SHV space completely encompasses all P3 colors, so you get the exact P3 image (IF the display can show the colors, of course - but Red's projector certainly would).

BTW, SHV color space ALSO completely encompasses AdobeRGB colors... and nearly all of the visible colors in ProPhoto... so it would be awesome for viewing stills done in wider gamut space too.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

4K could be soon obsolete:

Sharp shows 8K resolution prototype TV

The future is definitely in a mix of formats: HD, 2K, 4K, 8K, ...+K,...

 

[Ben Holmes]

8K, or Super Hi-Def is a much more mature broadcast format than 4k. It's possible that the industry will bypass 4K entirely as a broadcast platform, with 4K TVs a stopgap for uprezzed HD footage and gaming - or specialty web content in 4k for enthusiasts.

Broadcast standards move so slowly I think this is entirely possible.

In the end, all current cameras and footage, even that shot by RED will be obsolete.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

All the pieces are falling into place Petr, watch this space....

Don't worry Stuart I'm watching it very, very, very closely ... on my CRT :emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

That is what NHK has been banking on for a few years now. Straight to 8K and they're trying to have their official roll-out by 2020.

Unfortunately a lot of things have yet to happen... In 8 years time, all bets are off. 4K is just a step along the road to ??? We all know that.