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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K for the finish...

I'd be glad when at least all the movie theaters would upgrade from 2K and old 35mm to fully digital 4K projection finally, that's a good start ;) I'm sure the consumer world will follow shortly.
 
I just wanted to thank the Red team for their hard work.
We just got back from the Rainforest in Costa Rica. And there were NO problems at all with the Red camera. No hickups, no misstakes no nothing. The only thing we got was amazing and AMAZING images. I'm a hard core image geek but I was surprised at just how good and real the images look.

I always wanted to be able to capture moving images that look like real photos, with the Epic it's truly the first time!
We haven't decided if we will finish the movie in 2k or in 4k. Of course I would prefere 4k myself, but dealing with the post work makes me a bit nervous and it's hard to see the near future benefits. Some limiting factors I can see (that can all be solved)
- lack of 4k display to work with, monitor and tv
- definetly need a Rocket to be able to handle the data
- Will probably need something like a 2x8 core Xeon to deal with color grading and visual effects. But maybe I can work with 2k proxies to make it easier.
- And of course lack of possibility to deliver in 4k at this very moment at least.
- our slow motion sequences are still mostly in 2k.

On the plus side it would be great to be one of the earliest to deliver a 4k image of course so there could be some benefits here.

So far we had quite some luck with finding sponsors for saving the animals of the forest, so maybe it's about time to contact some tv manufacturer and see if they are interested! Anyone has anyone I could talk to? :D

Anyway, thanks for a wonderful journey Red! We will follow you to 6k and beyond.
/Andreas
 
M Most said:
Stereoscopic 3D is essentially free in many current flat panel sets, yet it still has a pathetically low adoption rate, because it turned out that people just aren't interested, regardless of how much the various industries involved wanted them to be. That's something to keep in mind in a market where an awfully high percentage of people not only already have a large, flat screen television, but they probably bought it within the last 2 or 3 years. And they're watching less and less of it, based on all the studies I seem to see. "Second screens" seem to be the growth area right now, and that doesn't' involve 4K, 60 inch sets, or anything else. It involves iPads and other tablets, as well as phones.

What you and other directly interested parties might want doesn't always translate to civilians and other "normal" folks with limited discretionary funds who make up the population of consumers. I also think you're living in dreamland, but that's only an opinion, no more or less valid than yours or anyone else's.
Click to expand...


On some points I agree and we all have our opinions :) I do think the adoption of 4K and 3D are wildly different beasts altogether. People in general are looking for that "window" effect. That will sell displays. 3D isn't as approachable for a variety of reasons. 4K is on display on those "second screens" and is coming. Just the fact that they were showcased in these devices and form factors this year tells me the whole story.

I understand the consumer mindset/logic. It's important though to understand that there are different tiers to the marketplace themselves. For the most part those with that discretionary fund seem to push the market forward. At least if history has anything to offer us.

Time will tell though. 2-3 years from now we'll see where the penetration is and where the more consumer friendly pricing structure lands. The important thing to realize, at least from my perspective, is that we should should be delivering in 4K today to keep our content viable for the UHD marketplace.

Civilian 4K digestion for me starts in theaters. And that already exists and is about to get much better.
 
AndreasOberg said:
I just wanted to thank the Red team for their hard work.
We just got back from the Rainforest in Costa Rica. And there were NO problems at all with the Red camera. No hickups, no misstakes no nothing. The only thing we got was amazing and AMAZING images. I'm a hard core image geek but I was surprised at just how good and real the images look.

I always wanted to be able to capture moving images that look like real photos, with the Epic it's truly the first time!
We haven't decided if we will finish the movie in 2k or in 4k. Of course I would prefere 4k myself, but dealing with the post work makes me a bit nervous and it's hard to see the near future benefits. Some limiting factors I can see (that can all be solved)
- lack of 4k display to work with, monitor and tv
- definetly need a Rocket to be able to handle the data
- Will probably need something like a 2x8 core Xeon to deal with color grading and visual effects. But maybe I can work with 2k proxies to make it easier.
- And of course lack of possibility to deliver in 4k at this very moment at least.
- our slow motion sequences are still mostly in 2k.

On the plus side it would be great to be one of the earliest to deliver a 4k image of course so there could be some benefits here.

So far we had quite some luck with finding sponsors for saving the animals of the forest, so maybe it's about time to contact some tv manufacturer and see if they are interested! Anyone has anyone I could talk to? :D

Anyway, thanks for a wonderful journey Red! We will follow you to 6k and beyond.
/Andreas
Click to expand...


What are you looking at using for grading in? As for resolve to a certain extent CUDA cores and the RAM the cards (as well as the system RAM) are at least as import as processor power. The CPU well there are two ways to go about that, with a rocket card then you can use a much poorer CPU setup. VFX are a different matter though a few program's are CUDA dominated to.

How much is there in the way of 2k slow mo? The odd sequence upscaled right wouldn't be to jarring, especially if shortish. The high fram rate should sharpen shots over normal frame rates to help here.

Monitoring is a pain, there are affordable outputs for it but precious little in the way of screens to do it with affordable or not. NAB may help here.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
What are you looking at using for grading in? As for resolve to a certain extent CUDA cores and the RAM the cards (as well as the system RAM) are at least as import as processor power. The CPU well there are two ways to go about that, with a rocket card then you can use a much poorer CPU setup. VFX are a different matter though a few program's are CUDA dominated to.

How much is there in the way of 2k slow mo? The odd sequence upscaled right wouldn't be to jarring, especially if shortish. The high fram rate should sharpen shots over normal frame rates to help here.
Click to expand...
Maybe 15% is in 2k some slow motion is in 3k as well so that is a bit better.
I had planned to use mainly Davinci for grading and some After Effects for effects on top (smoke, particles etc). I love that Davinci supports CUDA in such a good way but from what I understand 4 or 6 cores is unlikely to be enough. If I'm lucky maybe I will be fine with 6 cores and say 64GB of RAM, that wouldn't be too expensive. Adding a used Rocket on top of that could ice the cake. Anyone tried such a setup? I guess you wouldn't really need to see the final 4k in motion, but 2k would be good for working. Then you can review some frames in full resolution, not as fun but probably workable.

Best
/Andreas
 
AndreasOberg said:
Maybe 15% is in 2k some slow motion is in 3k as well so that is a bit better.
I had planned to use mainly Davinci for grading and some After Effects for effects on top (smoke, particles etc). I love that Davinci supports CUDA in such a good way but from what I understand 4 or 6 cores is unlikely to be enough. If I'm lucky maybe I will be fine with 6 cores and say 64GB of RAM, that wouldn't be too expensive. Adding a used Rocket on top of that could ice the cake. Anyone tried such a setup? I guess you wouldn't really need to see the final 4k in motion, but 2k would be good for working. Then you can review some frames in full resolution, not as fun but probably workable.

Best
/Andreas
Click to expand...

As long as its spread out 15% is probably fine, in one whack its a lot though.

In DaVinci the CPUs work is mostly to to decode the footage, if its all RED then the presence of a rocket takes all that strain. All rendering is done by the GPU. An i7 should take the load grading wise in DaVinci if there's a rocket to take the strain.

Editing either proxies or if using CS6 or FCPX a low debayer setting. 64 GB will smooth things along a lot especially for previews in After effects (which also prefers CUDA for rendering).
pwhat are you looking at GPU wise?
 
IMO Phil's note about tiers is the crux of this discussion. Are we still in a world of: early adopters, pause, mass market? How will scaling of the marketplace change pricing dynamics? If one arbitrarily picks a street price of say $1,000 for a 60" or larger UHD/4K display as the "tipping point", what would it take to get there? If I placed an order today for 20 million 65" UHD LCD panels, how good of a price could I get quoted?

I don't dispute Mike's assertion that the mass public has limited discretionary funds and many have bought TVs in the las 3 years they aren't ready to replace. Stipulated. What remains a bit harder to pin down is the number of "one percenters" who will find the value proposition of higher resolution TV more compelling than other luxury items. Based on HD adoption patterns I contend that the timetable for UHD/4K propagation is primarily dependent on the existence of a complete ecosystem of content, distribution and ease of installation/use (cabling, bandwidth availability, automatic upscaling, etc.)

FWIW, I believe mastering in 4K for anything with decent potential shelf life is smart business.

Cheers - #19
 
I don't see how you can possibly compare the adoption of 3D with that of UHD. 3D is a distinctly DIFFERENT experience than "regular" film/video. Some like it better, some not. But it is different and engenders opinions about whether you definitely want it, or definitely don't. Very few are indifferent.

UHD is a very similar experience to HD, but but most people would accept that it is (at least marginally) better. I dare say no one would argue it is a worse viewing experience. I suspect that were you to surreptitiously place a 4K display into someone's home and pipe in a UHD signal, you wouldn't get any pushback. Not likely the same with 3D.

So, adoption of UHD is only about money and infrastructure while adoption of 3D adds a very distinct issue of preference, as well. People will "accept" and eventually embrace UHD/4K. They may never prefer 3D and that is what is holding back adoption.

Now - feel free to argue about timing. LOL
 
The post super at my job has friends who don't like HD, its too "real" vs SD. So who knows LMFAO
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I don't see how you can possibly compare the adoption of 3D with that of UHD. 3D is a distinctly DIFFERENT experience than "regular" film/video. Some like it better, some not. But it is different and engenders opinions about whether you definitely want it, or definitely don't. Very few are indifferent.

UHD is a very similar experience to HD, but but most people would accept that it is (at least marginally) better. I dare say no one would argue it is a worse viewing experience. I suspect that were you to surreptitiously place a 4K display into someone's home and pipe in a UHD signal, you wouldn't get any pushback. Not likely the same with 3D.

So, adoption of UHD is only about money and infrastructure while adoption of 3D adds a very distinct issue of preference, as well. People will "accept" and eventually embrace UHD/4K. They may never prefer 3D and that is what is holding back adoption.

Now - feel free to argue about timing. LOL
Click to expand...


I made that point primarily to point out that when any of these things are placed before the public by an industry that is eager to sell product, much of the public will see it as a gimmick. 3D is clearly a gimmick. But for many, if not a large majority of consumers, a marginally better television picture is equally gimmicky in that it doesn't materially change what it is they're watching, and it comes at a price. Right now, there is no infrastructure in the US for delivery of UHD in any form - broadcast, hard goods, cable, or anything else short of Internet downloads. And Internet downloads are time consuming. So talking about these things as if adoption is imminent is really ignoring the current state of technology, and assuming that there is some kind of pent up demand for better television pictures. The first item is simply fact, the second is very presumptuous.

My own take on this is that sure, these things will happen eventually. So will a lot of other things. That's just the way technological progress works. But I don't think that a public that has recently invested in something they're pretty darned happy with is particularly anxious to do it again for something that represents a marginal improvement in the image, and for most of them, no real improvement in their lives.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
The Hobbit is also a poor example re: cost - since it was a 48fps 3D feature - pretty sure VFX and DI could have been done in 4K 3D at 24fps for same or less money than 3D 48fps 2K - but that was Peter Jackson choice. He wanted a HFR experience for his 3D film.
Click to expand...

Maybe The Hobbit is a poor example given HFR. But what about Prometheus?

I wish there were a comprehensive list somewhere of films that were actually mastered and projected at 4K, and where.
 
I posted a 4K list months ago but some of them were incorrect despite the information having come from post-production sources. Most of it is accurate though.
 
Justin Barham said:
Maybe The Hobbit is a poor example given HFR. But what about Prometheus?

I wish there were a comprehensive list somewhere of films that were actually mastered and projected at 4K, and where.
Click to expand...

There is no current format for a 4K stereoscopic DCP. Stereo DCPs are formatted as interleaved left eye/right eye streams. The largest current data rate only supports that arrangement in 2K.
 
M Most said:
There is no current format for a 4K stereoscopic DCP. Stereo DCPs are formatted as interleaved left eye/right eye streams. The largest current data rate only supports that arrangement in 2K.
Click to expand...

I understand that. Still I'd love to find a list of 2D films shot, mastered, and actually projected in 4K (not 2K via a 4K PJ), and where I could go see them. I would think that would be information Red would be very anxious to provide.
 
M Most said:
The largest current data rate only supports that arrangement in 2K.
Click to expand...

Sadly, the data rates for DCPs were locked down at the wrong time IMO. Maximum bit rate at 250 Mbit/s (125 Mbit/s per eye for 3D) and same (250 Mbit/s) for 4K was based more on what servers could play at the time that data rate was locked in. A lot has changed.

It should be worth some laughs when we compare 4k JPEG2000 at 250 Mbit/s and 4K in H265 at lower bit rates.
 
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