4K Finishing Folly

[Finner]

Yep. I'm staring at dual 30" Dell monitors sitting in front of mey right now. 2K and 1920x1080 HD fit nicely in their own window on these displays with ample room around for all your other tools and widgets. It just reminds me how large 4K really is. These two monster displays together only comprise 1/2 of a 5K frame. :w00t:

How much did you pay for them Jeff?

How long ago did you buy?

Do you know what the cost is now?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yep. I'm staring at dual 30" Dell monitors sitting in front of mey right now. 2K and 1920x1080 HD fit nicely in their own window on these displays with ample room around for all your other tools and widgets. It just reminds me how large 4K really is. These two monster displays together only comprise 1/2 of a 5K frame. :w00t:

haha, nice. Hey can you post a pic of your work area? I'm jealous.

Dual Dell 30s seems ideal for a RED 4k editing computer. Or you could just use a 24" or 27" for your NLE main view, and the 30" for your 2k view. A firebreathing new multicore computer, a few terabytes of storage (maybe 1TB of performance RAID in the system itself), and you're rockin and rollin'. :w00t:

 

[david farland]

Don't forget to read ExtremeTech's review of the 3 major 30" monitors here.and in particular the new 30" Dell here
I'm also hearing Apple are about to release better range of lcd's. I also heard up to 50" but that sounds like BS for now.
Wait till NAB I guess! ?@#K, I hate that phase!

DF

 

[Tom Lowe]

What do you think the next bump in resolution will be? I guess you could say those 30 inchers are "1600p"... what's next? something close to 3000x2000?

 

[GlennChan]

Meaning when REDCINE maps a ‘macro block’ (if that the right phase…maybe ‘bunch of pixel’ is better) of REDCODE 4K pixels to a lower rez DV/DVCPRO pixel, REDCINE is somehow able to re-map back that DV/DVCPRO pixel to it’s respective ‘macro block’ of REDCODE 4K pixels.
Either that or they don’t have to, as they’re confident there will be no loss of pixel data when they export from REDCODE to QT’s DVCPRO (for example) and then re-import back to REDCODE.....provided only offline EDL/XML compliant tasks have been performed on the code in the interim.

I don't see why "pixel mapping" / accuracy is necessary???? What goal or advantage would it have????

Take a look at EDLs, they are fairly simple and they already work.

 

[david farland]

I was expecting pixel accuracy was required for feeding offline dissolves, wipes, back into REDCINE for online output.
Seems on the surface, EDL can handle that. If your notion is EDL=All offline tasks, then yes EDL is sufficient.
Obviously pixel accuracy is required if you go beyond the limitation of what EDL’s can track and you’ll want to ensure those changes are communicated back to REDCINE.

DF

 

[GlennChan]

David, I believe Redcine will mostly follow the traditional offline/online model.

1- Offline edit. This can be with proxies, or Redcode RAW (no transcoding/converting).
2- Output EDL.
*3- Open EDL in Redcine.
*4- Redcine will de-bayer your footage in higher quality. This is a slower than doing a quick, low-quality debayer. Redcine might do other image processing magic ("best light" or "one light" operations like white balance). All the settings are presumably stored in Red pull list.
*5- Redcine exports high quality footage to online system.
6- Online system reads edit information from the EDL. It then captures/ingests footage.
7- Typically, many effects are not conveyable in an EDL. Non-standard dissolves (i.e. anything that's not a cross dissolve), filters, effects, etc.
To solve this, these effects are manually re-created (using paper notes + a copy of the offline edit as reference).
8- Online edit. Color correction, effects are applied. The final master is created from high-quality footage (i.e. least compression as possible).

*Steps 3-5 are specific to Red, since Bayer RAW --> RGB conversions involve trade-offs in quality and speed. Also, Red records a 'raw' digital negative without image processing baked in (color matrix, sharpening, white balance, gamma curves). Redcine allows you to tweak this image processing depending on your needs.

Step 7 may seem a little ridiculous. Other schemes aim to expand the feature set of EDLs to allow more effects to be translated. AAF, XML, OMF, Automatic Duck, FCP project file, Avid project file. The problem with some of these schemes is that they don't have widespread industry support... or the implementations simply aren't that good.

I don't believe "pixel accuracy" would solve the problem of effects not translating.

For most work, the offline edit contains only scratch effects and filters. Not much effort is put into them, and they are only there to convey intent. It is much more efficient to do/perfect the effects in the online editing system. And to re-create effects in the online conform is not that big a deal, since the effects are going to be tweaked anyways.

***Other workflows are possible with Red. For example, you may do all your editing in one program. In this case, it may be possible to switch a Redcode codec setting to use the high-quality, slow de-bayer method (with RPL for changing image processing for particular shots?). From your editing software, you'd render out your high quality master. Cineform does something like this already.

 

[Tom Lowe]

See, what Glenn points here is exactly why I want to edit at 4K on my own editing machine. When I am working on an artistic project, I will spend hours and hours just getting one or two dissolves exactly how I want them. I'll change a single dissolve 25 times just to get it to work perfectly with the music. No way am I going to trust all my work to an EDL, nor can I afford to rent an online studio for the hundreds of hours I would spend editing an entire feature. EDL lists and paper notes... no thanks!

 

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

I did this same post in that forum elswhere . After a tour in many forums i heard that grading or "color correction" may take hours in some compositing softwares that can handle 2K/4K resolution . As far as i'm concerned Red one is a revolutionary 2K/4K camera , otherwise HDXcam or Panasonic P2 can do the job. Now the question is when transcoding using redcine to sequence files (the ones to be used by speedgrade or the expensive lustre while premiere pro use finesse plugin) . Does the file size remain the same (as small as redcode) ? Did anybody made a test on a specific computer station to see the speed of processing a 15 min 4K movie including editing , grading and watching the final results ? The answer should give an idea on the NLE station to purchase and the prices may go from some (1-9)K$ to (10-100)K$.

Regards .

 

[david farland]

Thanks for that Glenn…helped me a lot!

Be nice to have something on workflow similar to what Mike Morlan has done re: Camera/ Redcine diagram.
Even a flow chart of the basics options may clarify quite a lot, to which we can add to.

Cheers,
DF

 

[JohnF]

Personally I think, for the next couple of years anyway, that RED shooters are going to be very much working using traditional offline then online workflows.

For 4k editing computers simply aren't fast enough (yet) to make editing the smooth creative process it should be. So I think until they get faster you're going to see alot of people doing 1080/720 or even SD edits(I know I will at first) of RED footage for the offline anyway.

That said I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread but Quantel's edit systems are 4k compatible and have the added advantage of dynamic bit rounding(dbr) which dithers images to give non-quantized(banding) image output for 8bit workflows (DigiBeta, DVD etc) whilst at the same time able to produce your 4k master!

So I will be using Quantels to maintain RED footage quality when the output needs to be the business but I will be "carefully" working with EDL's and paper from my own editsystem. Whilst for lower budget shoots I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and expect slower workflows until technology catches up with 4k.

Oh I could go on and suggest that with there being, shall we say, a significant shortage of 4k monitoring options that there is no point in mastering at 4k unless you have a guarenteed need to actually output in it. But the great thing about RED is that at the end of it all you'll still have your 4k digital negative to remaster from if you get a request for a 4k copy, for which you'll be able to charge...

JohnF

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

How much did you pay for them Jeff?

How long ago did you buy?

Do you know what the cost is now?

I have 4 30" displays spread out on 3 systems. I bought my first Dell 30" a bit over a year ago, Jan/Feb '06. It was $2499 then, same as the new Apple 30". I went with the Dell one because it used the same Samsung panel and backlight system, included a 3 year warranty standard and it has an adjustable-height stand that can rotate the monitor for portrait mode work. Apple is still using their ergonomically-challenged stands that do nothing but tilt for vertical viewing angle adjustment (read: needs third-party add ons in many situations).

All that said, my second 30" was an Apple unit bought last July as a refurbished unit from the local Apple Store. $1599.

I bought another 30" Dell the first week of December to add a second 30" display to my primary workstation. $1349 shipped from Dell (after I cleared up a sales tax glitch). Unfortunately, when paired with the 1 year old display, which uses an older revision Samsung panel and light system, I couldn't get them to match completely. The older one was just slightly less bright and lacked some saturation on the blue channel. Dell ran a forum special last month along with another price break so I picked up one more 30" (now I have an identical pair) and I moved the oldest one to another system. The last one I paid $1289 shipped.

Dell has dropped the price again and they can be had for $1274 without coupon right now. Free shipping deals can be usually found from various coupon sites and Dell often just has that deal anyway.

I use a Gefen 4 port DVI|DL switcher to switch one of the displays on my main setup between a Mac and PC. This PC is moving out of here in a couple months when I get my 8 core Mac (I hope) and at that point, I'll probably get another DVI|DL switcher so I can switch both displays between the two systems.

HP's current 30" display is really nice too (although it's aestetically butt-ugly) it has 3 DVI|DL inputs on it, so no switcher required and goes for about $1500 from most vendors.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

haha, nice. Hey can you post a pic of your work area? I'm jealous.

Dual Dell 30s seems ideal for a RED 4k editing computer. Or you could just use a 24" or 27" for your NLE main view, and the 30" for your 2k view. A firebreathing new multicore computer, a few terabytes of storage (maybe 1TB of performance RAID in the system itself), and you're rockin and rollin'. :w00t:

This current G5 quad setup I have is made of the following:

G5 Quad 2.5GHz (2xdual core), 8GB RAM, FX4500 video
PCI-E FiberChannel controller
250GB System/application drive
2*500GB drives in a RAID-0 stripe
16X DL SuperDrive
Dual Dell 30" displays

Here's a crappy pic I already have that I snapped when first setting up the dual 30" screens. I'd be happy to take some more if you want to see something specific. It's not clear just how cool these things are until you have full 1920x1080 running on the screen and you realize how many pixels you actually have to work with.

 

[Finner]

Thanks Jeff,

What are your thoughts on the mac / dell monitor comparison (pro's/con's).

 

[Thomas Mathai]

See, what Glenn points here is exactly why I want to edit at 4K on my own editing machine. When I am working on an artistic project, I will spend hours and hours just getting one or two dissolves exactly how I want them. I'll change a single dissolve 25 times just to get it to work perfectly with the music. No way am I going to trust all my work to an EDL, nor can I afford to rent an online studio for the hundreds of hours I would spend editing an entire feature. EDL lists and paper notes... no thanks!

Then you need to use the right tool.

If you see the need to spend hours finessing a dissolve, then do it in a vfx app, render it out both high and low quality and bring it into your NLE. Don't let your NLE be bogged down with needless processes.

For me editing is more about getting the pacing, rhythm and feel of the story right, and as unencumbered as possible. While it helps to have a good image to look at, you don't need a 4k image to edit with.

 

[GlennChan]

Tom: EDLs will work fine for cross dissolves. If you are trying to do something other than a cross dissolve, a NLE like Final Cut Pro probably can't do it at 4K resolution real-time. (It seems like only the cross dissolve is RT at 1080 resolution; everything else isn't.) Whereas with SD or 720p, you may be able to do the transition real-time and be able to tweak it interactively.

2- I'm not sure what's not to trust about an EDL. In some cases the conform process is not frame accurate, but you can get an assistant editor to check sync and slip (edit) everything. It's kind of tedious, but it works.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What are your thoughts on the mac / dell monitor comparison (pro's/con's).

Comparing the Apple/Dell...

Personally, I like the Dell better. They're both using the same Samsung panel and backlight system and really the screen image is nearly identical. Different OEM manufacturers using different internal electronics/processing, so there are a few subtle differences between the two. The Dell has more options to control settings (via USB from a PC only though).

Apple:
Good -- Nice color out of the box, little tweaking necessary. Firewire/USB2 ports. Matches the Mac computers with their brushed aluminum, impresses clients.

Bad -- Tilt display forward back only with included stand. No adjustable height, stand doesn't rotate/pivot. Typical Apple pricing -- it was fine when released, and they dropped the price about 8 months later, but even with that it's still too expensive for what it is given other current options.

Dell:
Good -- Great picture and color just like the Apple. Adjustable height stand, can tilt and rotate/pivot the display. Built in USB2 hub, 5-in-2 memory card reader that takes CF, SD/SM/MS/MMC cards. Nice design with thin (about 1") black bezel around display. Great price, 3 year warranty included.

Bad -- Their dead pixel policy isn't as good as Apple's (8 total or 2 adjoining), Apple replaces on 3 bad pixels. FWIW, of 4 30" displays, I only have one stuck pixel on the very first of the Dell monitors I bought. It appeared after about 60 days. But it's not an issue.

Overall, if the price isn't that big of a concern (even though there's a $650 difference between Dell and Apple), they're mostly identical. I personally wouldn't buy one until after NAB since Dell is rumored to be shipping the updated Samsung panel soon with their 30" (I think this is why they keep lowering the price every 10 days or so). Apple is rumored to have new displays soon too.

Also, I didn't specify it in the above sections regarding the displays, but out of the box the Dell's default settings are adjusted to be a bit brighter and more suitable for application use and gaming. Apple sets their displays a little less bright, but with better color tweaks more suitable for print and graphics work. Neither is better, just different out of the box and I think most of us will adjust to fit our own needs anyway.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Glen, yeah, all I use are cross dissolves.

I just want to avoid the extra steps involved in off-lining. That's all.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Here's a crappy pic I already have that I snapped when first setting up the dual 30" screens. I'd be happy to take some more if you want to see something specific. It's not clear just how cool these things are until you have full 1920x1080 running on the screen and you realize how many pixels you actually have to work with.

I thought the resolution was higher than 1920x1080 on those 30-inchers? Isn't it something like 2560x1600?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I thought the resolution was higher than 1920x1080 on those 30-inchers? Isn't it something like 2560x1600?

It is 2560x1600. I was saying that you don't appreciate all those pixels until you have a 1920x1080 video frame on your screen. ...And you still have room for everything else, timeline and whatnot, editing tools, etc.. around it! :nerd: