4K display

[Tim Whitcomb]

Really? What do you consider a super 1080P image that is distributed? REDray has virtually no artifacts (something Blu-ray can't say) and 4K REDray is 5 times the resolution at 2/3 the data rate.

You are missing the real choice for the future... much more resolution, better quality at less bandwidth. There is no trade-off.

Jim

WOW, this is the BEST missed news on REDUSER in 2011. These are incredible specs for RED RAY!! CANT WAIT!, but no worries, I wont even mention the S word

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

WOW, this is the BEST missed news on REDUSER in 2011. These are incredible specs for RED RAY!! CANT WAIT!, but no worries, I wont even mention the S word

...And it's not news, if you've been paying attention.

Blu-Ray is an excellent example of how not to use increased resolution. The images are often over-processed, over-sharpened and over-compressed. Most of the time Blu-Ray titles look like shit. I consider this due to the lowest-common-denominator factor. It's like they are mastered to look "pretty good" on a 32" 1366x768 "720p" LCD panel from a distance of about 12 feet. Movies like The Dark Knight look really good under that sort of viewing condition. Put them on a full 1080p large-screen DLP or projector and they look like someone trapped a moire monster inside edge-enhancement hell. Sometimes they leave a strobe light on too...

 

[Ravi Kiran]

Blu-Ray is an excellent example of how not to use increased resolution. The images are often over-processed, over-sharpened and over-compressed. Most of the time Blu-Ray titles look like shit. I consider this due to the lowest-common-denominator factor. It's like they are mastered to look "pretty good" on a 32" 1366x768 "720p" LCD panel from a distance of about 12 feet. Movies like The Dark Knight look really good under that sort of viewing condition. Put them on a full 1080p large-screen DLP or projector and they look like someone trapped a moire monster inside edge-enhancement hell. Sometimes they leave a strobe light on too...

But is that inherent to the Blu-Ray format or was the Blu-Ray of The Dark Knight just not well-done?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I assume that a RedRay box (RedRay decoding hardware/boards) would be the most important piece of the puzzle for the consumer 4k future. Making that hardware available to all the big companies would allow them to make their own Red-Ray boxes, and it would be the tipping-point for them to go ahead and release their 4k screens as well. Consumer 4k would happen.

The 8,000+ 4k theater screens and growing will have to provide the demand to get the 4k content flow started. Of course more affordable professional 4k projectors/screens would help tremendously in feeding content for these screens, and get the future going. If a $10k investment gets you a color-grading-quality 30' projection...

I might be asking a question that can't be answered. But hypothetically speaking, if this were the case, could Red control the aspect of the 4k consumer future by making their consumer-RedRay-hardware operate at "native" 2:1 aspect? Is that in fact what you are saying when you post that you think 2:1 is the future? Are you saying that you are making consumer-RedRay-hardware 2:1? Was that Jim's public memo to all screen manufacturers to make sure everybody knows Red's vision so that they get their 4k screens' aspect right, and ready to go? It would make a great deal of sense since digital 4k acquisition is only coming from Red's ~2:1 sensors right now.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

As I said I do not stand oppose 4K or technological development, I'm just not sure the generall public will welcome it with open arms.
Most people doesn't care about resolution or compression, they can look at stuff much more compressed then Blu-Ray and still don't understand what I'm talking about when saying this looks like crap.

I know I will buy a 4K display when it comes down in price, I know I want REDray to become a standard and I want all my movies with a "REDray" stamp on them.

What I mean with the good 1080p image versus bad 4K image post was that REDray won't be the only codec on the market.
And the blu-ray artifacts you refer to is a result of other companies developing a distribution format for 1080p and screws it up.
The best codec might not become the standard codec for 4K. While I hope it will, what this boils down to is that if I have to choose between a bad looking MPEG4 4K codec in the same style as current Blu-Ray or a very good looking 1080p with great color depth and almost no visible compression the choice isn't very hard.

That said, if I had to choose from the current 1080p codecs and 4K REDray, that choice is also not very hard :thumbup1:

I really really hope that your codec reach out to the broad market, that it will become the great standard for distribution both for consumers but also as a working codec for editors and such. I really really wish this to happen. So I'm not really missing out on this choice, it's not even a choice, if it's gonna be as good as predicted then what choice do I have? :coolgleamA:

Really? What do you consider a super 1080P image that is distributed? REDray has virtually no artifacts (something Blu-ray can't say) and 4K REDray is 5 times the resolution at 2/3 the data rate.

You are missing the real choice for the future... much more resolution, better quality at less bandwidth. There is no trade-off.

Jim

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Really? What do you consider a super 1080P image that is distributed? REDray has virtually no artifacts (something Blu-ray can't say) and 4K REDray is 5 times the resolution at 2/3 the data rate.

You are missing the real choice for the future... much more resolution, better quality at less bandwidth. There is no trade-off.

Jim

I'm as enthusiastic as anyone can be about Red Ray!

I know Red Ray is really about the 4K+ future ... but I'd be very excited to use it today NOW for 720/1080p web deliverables.

That said, its hard to be enthusiastic for something I can't download, can't encode, and can't play back.

So, when I can encode Red Ray using Compressor or Adobe Media Encoder, and deliver it to any computer or to a set top box that costs no more than a Playstation 3, hopefully much less, and connects to displays that are generally available, then I promise to do a happy dance.

I'm sorry it will be a terrifying and soul scarring dance, just like all my dances. This is a natural artifact of the "Alex dancing" process.

I'd promise to shoot it with a Red and send it over, but I fear that might disincentivize you.

 

[Ryan Farnes]

I just read through the whole thread. Whew!

I too am curious about what Alexander is asking. (I'm also coincidentally in the DC area...must be the water) But beyond "training" consumers, I'm just curious about logistics.

I see 3 hurdles. Name recognition and market buzz, 720p/1080p's speed of adoption/literacy (both basic factual knowledge and visual literacy in seeing the detail) and content availability.

I think we all agree on wanting the best image quality possible. Like others have said, I just want to know when I can get a 4K panel or flat screen TV and a RED RAY for $2000 or less. My gut tells me it will be a while. I'd welcome indicators to the contrary.

 

[L. Langer]

Like others have said, I just want to know when I can get a 4K panel or flat screen TV and a RED RAY for $2000 or less. My gut tells me it will be a while. I'd welcome indicators to the contrary.

Honestly, the price could easily be the same as today's displays. I'm not kidding when I say that either. The price goes higher when you use exotic display technology like OLED but a 4K LCD or LED TV using the same basic parts as what is already on sale could easily be done because the only real differences between them and the current 4K concept sets (not including the really bleeding edge prototypes) are a few internal components that drive the higher resolution display.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Honestly, the price could easily be the same as today's displays. I'm not kidding when I say that either. The price goes higher when you use exotic display technology like OLED but a 4K LCD or LED TV using the same basic parts as what is already on sale could easily be done because the only real differences between them and the current 4K concept sets (not including the really bleeding edge prototypes) are a few internal components that drive the higher resolution display.

I have had a version of this conversation with people who actually design and build displays. Evidently there is more to feeding a 4K panel than 1080 times 4. Beyond that, what connection standard makes sense? Thunderbolt seems to have the bandwidth to do 4K on one cable, but due to the need for electronics built into the cables themselves this would seem a rather expensive route - not to mention the lack of any rational migration path for existing infrastructure. Not sure what the realistic limit is on pushing data over SDI variants but using my current Red Rocket Break Out Box it takes me 8 cables to send out 4K...

Cheers - #19

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I love and see 4k NOW, there is no turning back, I'll share what I find in Japan as well later in September with you guys, but I know I'll have a4K LCD at home as well as a 4k Projector at the Studios,
as there is the absolute need for both my work and my pleasure...

It is just a HUGE shame not to be able to show off EPIC 5K imagery to every one, they would see what I see, and they would not want to see it any other way, TUST ME ON THIS!!!

 

[Michael Olsen]

Beyond that, what connection standard makes sense?

HDMI has 4k, 3d, and deep color built into their spec.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I have had a version of this conversation with people who actually design and build displays. Evidently there is more to feeding a 4K panel than 1080 times 4. Beyond that, what connection standard makes sense? Thunderbolt seems to have the bandwidth to do 4K on one cable, but due to the need for electronics built into the cables themselves this would seem a rather expensive route - not to mention the lack of any rational migration path for existing infrastructure. Not sure what the realistic limit is on pushing data over SDI variants but using my current Red Rocket Break Out Box it takes me 8 cables to send out 4K...

HDMI has 4k, 3d, and deep color built into their spec.

Agree - and that was HDMI 1.4! It's just that stereo grabbed all of the attention. Supports up to 30p 3840x2160, I think?

HDMI 1.5 - with support for 60fps 1080p stereo (for games - they don't work well at 24p) and 48fps 4K stereo (for The Hobbit) has to be the next logical step.

I'm sure that Sony wants HDMI 1.5 for its next Playstation for games in stereo at >30fps.

I'm sure LG (with its passive polarization 3D that cuts the vertical resolution by half) wants 4K 3D as soon as possible, where the resolution cut will be less-noticeable to most people.

It's coming... they just want you to buy the 1080p 24fps stereo displays first

I am getting a cheaper 1080p 3D projector now and will happily wait two years and by that time I'm sure I'll be able to upgrade to a 4K 3D >30fps display.

And also, I'm pretty sure desktop monitors will hit 4K sooner than that.

I was the first guy to say that 4K finishes were stupid things to worry about back in 2007 (and they were for the average filmmaker ) - but come on, this is 2011 going on 2012

Now I just hope that they move to a wider color gamut than 709. I don't care if it's xvYCC or if they just widen the primaries to P3. But man, we have to do something!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com