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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4k / 2k PRO RES / DNxHD MODULE - who wants one.

David Mullen ASC said:
It's not that bad -- ProRes 4444 is something like 330 Mbps I think, close to HDCAM-SR 4:2:2 (440 Mbps), which was the most common acquisition format for dramatic TV series shooting digitally (on the Genesis and F35) until the Alexa came along. I just shot a whole season of "Smash" in ProRes 4444 and color-corrected it in a D.I. suite on a 40' screen and didn't have any problems. But then, I don't do much blowing up and stabilizing. Obviously if one were going to do a lot of image resizing, a higher resolution image like from a Red would be better.
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David you are an ASC cinematographer I cant really argue with anything you say. Your right its not that bad but it doesnt come close to scaling an R3D. In my limited Indie career where I have shot 1 300k feature on the Alexa in Pro Res 4444 in 17days with a skeleton crew, running Steadicam all over the windy streets of new york getting kicked out of locations and stealing shots I would of loved that extra resolution that I would have received from the epic. Also I'm an owner operator that is highly invested in the RED1/Epic, RED Rockets, Scratch, a 4 pack of 256SSD. So the last thing that I need is people telling producers that Pro Res is ok. For me I'd rather own and operate a $50k 5k camera and a $5k red rocket that can transcode in realtime instead of $88k HD camera that you still have to drop a lut on for dailies, probably not in realtime either, i may be wrong.
All that said I don't consider the Alexa or Pro Res 4444 the best choice for Independent Digital Cinema.
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
David you are an ASC cinematographer I cant really argue with anything you say. Your right its not that bad but it doesnt come close to scaling an R3D. In my limited Indie career where I have shot 1 300k feature on the Alexa in Pro Res 4444 in 17days with a skeleton crew, running Steadicam all over the windy streets of new york getting kicked out of locations and stealing shots I would of loved that extra resolution that I would have received from the epic. Also I'm an owner operator that is highly invested in the RED1/Epic, RED Rockets, Scratch, a 4 pack of 256SSD. So the last thing that I need is people telling producers that Pro Res is ok. For me I'd rather own and operate a $50k 5k camera and a $5k red rocket that can transcode in realtime instead of $88k HD camera that you still have to drop a lut on for dailies, probably not in realtime either, i may be wrong.
All that said I don't consider the Alexa or Pro Res 4444 the best choice for Independent Digital Cinema.
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Lets not forget that you can shoot RAW on the Alexa also . It didn't do to badly for HUGO which was very VFX heavy?...plenty of shows, Downton Abbey for one, shoot pro res and it looks very nice indeed.
 
Robert Horwell said:
Lets not forget that you can shoot RAW on the Alexa also . It didn't do to badly for HUGO which was very VFX heavy?...plenty of shows, Downton Abbey for one, shoot pro res and it looks very nice indeed.
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I dont think you can shoot RAW on the Alexa, you can shoot ARRI RAW, and not to the camera but to Codex box or a Obi box that doubles the weight of the camera and turns it into a monster. I also think that Arri Raw is uncompressed DPX and its only 2700 lines horizontal. And I think, it takes 1.5 hours to download 30minutes of a Codex mag. I don't consider it in the same class as a 5k R3D, but I may be wrong.
 
Maybe you should look at the Gemini 444. Lets not get into a EPIC V Alexa debate, but at the same time , let's be sure we know what we are saying before we say it. I own both cameras and i can tell you categorically that they both have their virtues and flaws. Both are shooting award winning features and TV, but they are different animals in many ways. All i am saying is before the Pro-res, raw, arriraw thing gets embarrassing and ends up being pasted onto CML, make sure you know what you are talking about.
 
Robert Horwell said:
Maybe you should look at the Gemini 444. Lets not get into a EPIC V Alexa debate, but at the same time , let's be sure we know what we are saying before we say it. I own both cameras and i can tell you categorically that they both have their virtues and flaws. Both are shooting award winning features and TV, but they are different animals in many ways. All i am saying is before the Pro-res, raw, arriraw thing gets embarrassing and ends up being pasted onto CML, make sure you know what you are talking about.
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Is that a threat or something ?


All Im saying is that before we all go buy a $XXXX Pro Res module to shoot 1080 pro res with, think about your investment in RED Digital Cinema products so far.
In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
Is that a threat or something ?


All saying is that before we all go buy a $XXXX Pro Res module to shoot 1080 pro res with, think about your investment in RED Digital Cinema products so far.
In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.
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Paul, please don't read into my post and make something out of it that is not there. I made a simple statement, just make sure you know what you are talking about before you make statements. I certainly don't make threats, if anything i was trying to protect you.
 
It is not productive to say that one process is definitely better than another. It is always about the context. I want a pro res module because it gives me choices. Some jobs and clients will take advantage of RAW while others are best served with a pro res video file.

The ideal is RAW of course and if the client has the money and the smarts to follow proper post procedure everybone is happy. Others are just frustrated and/ or ignorant of the RAW workflow and are just likely to f*#k it up and never want to work with Red again. I like to keep clients ( even annoying ones) happy. I need their money :smile5:
 
Exactly what tom says, for sure its better to have a 5k raw file, we know thats better. But sometimes you don't need the best, i just need something that looks good without space for alot grading and changing. So there is a place for a 1920x1080 prores module in the current market, now and for the next few years. Clients like the alexa because of relative small filesize and the offloadspeed and playback the clips directly on any decent macbook without transcoding, buffering or extra hardware.That is what defines the camera choice for some clients... So if red would give us this module, we could also offer that ease if they want... more options, more use for the camera :)
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
In my world its better to stay R3D and transcode.
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I think in many of our worlds that is the case... that's why we're here, and that's why we're invested (in more than one way) into RED's philosophy. But it is important to remember that there are other "worlds" out there which are equally as valid for right now than just whatever ones we may personally deal with.

There is a hell of a lot of content produced that is broadcasted once and will never be shown again. It doesn't need futureproofing, it doesn't need a 4K master. Not everything is the Hobbit. I know what Jim is pushing for and I thank god he's pushing, because none of this 4K turnover would be happening at the rate (or at the price point) it is if it were not for him. But there's no reason to stifle other people's workflows by denying them a CHOICE. If a Prores module or whatever is not for you, who cares? You already have a camera that shoots 5K RAW and could very well be doing 6K by the end of the year. Live and let live.
 
Great points guys, there are so many workflows, so many clients with different needs.
There is also another potential solution. The Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle and studio. The shuttle is a rechargable unit that mounts onto the camera, takes an SDI input and converts to other formats. The shuttle to
Uncompressed QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid DNxHD MXF, all very popular formats. The studio which is a rackmount unit converts to: Uncompressed QuickTime, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid.DNxHD MXF. I am investing in the shuttle unit X 2. Many clients ask for Avid DNxHD and Arri charge 3890 Euro for the licence key!!!.. ( love the RED philosophy, upgrades are a god send )...The Hyperdeck will mount on my RED cameras and Arri so it's a bit of a no brainer. Uncompressed QT is also a very useful format. With so many 3rd parties providing alternatives, i couldn't blame RED for not developing a module. Best of all the Hyperdeck is $395.00!!!...insane. I do not work neither am i affiliated with Blackmagic. best of all i can give them the 4/5K RAW files to archive or conform , grade at their leisure.
 
Certainly gets my vote as the Pro Res/Dnxhd module or video module is the missing component preventing the Epic from being a flexible production machine. Its a real advantage if I could hand production rushes straight after a shoot as editing often starts immediately. Most productions are then happy to go back to R3D originals at the grade. I'm about to take delivery of my third Samurai and fingers crossed this one works. A self contained module is the way to go.
 
Mark Toia said:
KEEP VOTING WITH THIS THREAD GUYS... you know you all want it.!
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Sorry Mark, i don't follow this time.
1) Pix 240 is "great enough"
2) The Adobe Premiere workflow 4KHD CS5.5 on a "poor" macbookPro is nearly good enough for me. Now, I am waiting for my next uptodate PC notebook Clevo with CS6 who should be "good enough".

Olivier
 
Yes The Pix 240 is a high quality machine that does the job but I personally crave an elegant integrated lightweight module that works without me even thinking about it apart from feeding it media. As a freelance operator I have no control over post and the vast majority of my clients use FCP7 or Avid. I have yet to ever see Adobe Premiere being used in a facility. Premiere is probably superior for Red workflow but its not my call.
 
Mark Toia said:
Im still testing Premier... My verdict is still not in....

And I don;t want to lug around a Pix 240... Thats just another thing to weigh me down.

I use the KISS theory. .... Keep it simple stupid.....
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And I am a big fan of you and that theory too, but I made a try with ProRes and Pix and,finally, i found that the 4KHD and Premiere was easier. The weight is not very different (1/12 ratio versus ProRes), the Macbook does respond very well with 4K HD. Just download and edit !
Now, I will try with an 8 core i7 384 CUDA 32G of RAM and CS6, and I think it will be again more easy !
If somebody should have said to me that it would be so cool to work in R3D 2 years ago, I think i would not have believe him !

Even my RedRocket Mobile seems oldfashion to me, and I am not sure anymore to need it in its thunderbolt version I am waiting for since so long !!


Olivier
 
I want one! ProRes module. An external recorder works, but it's one more thing that needs external power, more SDI cables, one more thing that can fail if you're not monitoring it.
 
What keeps the Epic from being able to record in a "ProRes Mode" or lets say R3Dlite, REDs own cross platform 220mb data rate editorial codec. Can they not re route the 1080 feed to the SSD and make their own codec or sell a plugin like Arri does with Pro Res and DnxHD.
 
Robert Horwell said:
Great points guys, there are so many workflows, so many clients with different needs.
There is also another potential solution. The Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle and studio. The shuttle is a rechargable unit that mounts onto the camera, takes an SDI input and converts to other formats. The shuttle to
Uncompressed QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid DNxHD MXF, all very popular formats. The studio which is a rackmount unit converts to: Uncompressed QuickTime, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) QuickTime, Avid DNxHD QuickTime, Avid.DNxHD MXF. I am investing in the shuttle unit X 2. Many clients ask for Avid DNxHD and Arri charge 3890 Euro for the licence key!!!.. ( love the RED philosophy, upgrades are a god send )...The Hyperdeck will mount on my RED cameras and Arri so it's a bit of a no brainer. Uncompressed QT is also a very useful format. With so many 3rd parties providing alternatives, i couldn't blame RED for not developing a module. Best of all the Hyperdeck is $395.00!!!...insane. I do not work neither am i affiliated with Blackmagic. best of all i can give them the 4/5K RAW files to archive or conform , grade at their leisure.
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Hey Robert...I'm stepping in here late, but how's your experience been with the Hyperdeck Shuttle? Does it copy over the Timecode and Metadata to the proxies for a seamless uprezz later to the R3D's? Or not yet...?

Thx
 
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