4.5 vs 5K

[Scott Lamoreaux]

Bare with me guys, I'm still pretty novice on the film side so pardon my lack of knowledge when it comes to certain technical details.

With respect to the Raven's resolution (4.5K), other than the crop factor, will it be a noticeable difference in terms of quality vs a 5K FF sensor of the Epic-MX or Epic Dragon? I know other factors come into play (Max Redcode ratios etc for Max FPS) but just in general is the difference in quality noticeable from 4.5 to 5k?

Thank you,

Scott

 

[Phil Holland]

This graphic:




The simple answer is simple. Resolution. 5K>4.5K.

The more complicated answer is that there have been notable image quality improvements on DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] bodies over previous DSMC Epic and Scarlet Dragon models. Elimination/improvement of artifacts, lower noise floor, better optical path, etc... Resulting in a slight improvement.

Also note the aspect ratio and how you will use the sensor size and formats of each system.

 

[Scott Lamoreaux]

Thanks Phil - That graphic helps understand the difference in field of view and overall sensor size but i was asking more along the lines of is it easily distinguishable if something was shot in 4.5K vs 5K in terms of detail, sharpness, etc.

At the announcement of the Raven Release, I had a hard time deciding whether to pay the $9500 to upgrade/swap my Scarlet-MX brain for an Epic-X or Buy Raven. I'm not a pro film maker I only use my Red for doc work and real estate advertising by making films for my luxury listings. However, I personally always love having the best of what I can afford even if it's overkill. Most Everyone on here that replied told me to forgo the larger/yet older Epic MX sensor for the new Raven body, components and dragon sensor, Even if it's a crop and .5K less in resolution.

Do you agree with my choice for what I use it for?

Thank you,

Scott

 

[Björn Benckert]

Thanks Phil - That graphic helps understand the difference in field of view and overall sensor size but i was asking more along the lines of is it easily distinguishable if something was shot in 4.5K vs 5K in terms of detail, sharpness, etc.

At the announcement of the Raven Release, I had a hard time deciding whether to pay the $9500 to upgrade/swap my Scarlet-MX brain for an Epic-X or Buy Raven. I'm not a pro film maker I only use my Red for doc work and real estate advertising by making films for my luxury listings. However, I personally always love having the best of what I can afford even if it's overkill. Most Everyone on here that replied told me to forgo the larger/yet older Epic MX sensor for the new Raven body, components and dragon sensor, Even if it's a crop and .5K less in resolution.

Do you agree with my choice for what I use it for?

Thank you,

Scott

Sharpness detail etc, get exponentially better with the increase of "k"´s used. And noise goes the other direction.

But well shot 4.5k will be extremly difficult to see the difference form 5k, field of view off course but that is difficult to tell aswell if you dont have side by side comparison.

Easiest test get a 6k frame bring it into photoshop, scale to 4k....
Then take the same frame crop of to 5k scale to 4k...
then take 4.5 crop scale to 4k...

compare...

ofcourse you will have different framings, but quality when looking at the 3 different result frames zoomed in at 1:1 is whats interesting.

/b

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Thanks Phil - That graphic helps understand the difference in field of view and overall sensor size but i was asking more along the lines of is it easily distinguishable if something was shot in 4.5K vs 5K in terms of detail, sharpness, etc.

At the announcement of the Raven Release, I had a hard time deciding whether to pay the $9500 to upgrade/swap my Scarlet-MX brain for an Epic-X or Buy Raven. I'm not a pro film maker I only use my Red for doc work and real estate advertising by making films for my luxury listings. However, I personally always love having the best of what I can afford even if it's overkill. Most Everyone on here that replied told me to forgo the larger/yet older Epic MX sensor for the new Raven body, components and dragon sensor, Even if it's a crop and .5K less in resolution.

Do you agree with my choice for what I use it for?

Thank you,

Scott

Hey Scott. I think you have an old 5" touch of mine Hope all is going great.

The general rule of thumb that I have experienced but also heard from numerous DPs is that for 4K delivery from Dragon 5k going down to 4K is the sweet spot. Now that is talking for a 4k delivery like Netflix. Obviously 5.5 and 6K even better but there is the balance of amount of data to consider too esp. for narrative with long takes etc... That said. The cool thing with Raven is you will have (I assume) the cleaner look that comes with the better processor and overall improved imaging. Plus they are giving you 3:1 for your 4.5 K so that is pretty sweet right there. I suspect compared to Dragon your 4.5K will be very very nice indeed. And if you are not regularly finishing to true 4K, or for web etc then the Raven is kinda like a BMW 335 twin turbo compared to an M3. Depends who's driving

 

[sam karr]

The difference will not be huge both @WS. Raven is not 4.5K FF though. It's between 2:1 and WS. Then the difference with 5KFF is more noticeable.

 

[Milano Questa]

RAVEN 4.5k is not 16:9 aspect ratio. Basically useless if you want to scale down to UHD or 4K. It's a marketing trick really.
Epic 5K you can scale down to 4K.

Yes, you'll notice the difference.

 

[Mark T Workman]

RAVEN 4.5k is not 16:9 aspect ratio. Basically useless if you want to scale down to UHD or 4K. It's a marketing trick really.
Epic 5K you can scale down to 4K.

Yes, you'll notice the difference.

Oh I love this thread as we're really getting down to business NOW! Yes! I've restored over 600 films and I'm not sure but the difference between 4K and 5K is like night and day. What needs to change on RAVEN in your opinion? What is the problem? What is the fix?

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

4K for TV is 4096x2160 . Raven Pixel array is 4608 x 2160. So it meets delivery req no? The extra width of course if not useful as would be extra top and bottom here but still.

 

[Mark T Workman]

4K for TV is 4096x2160 . Raven Pixel array is 4608 x 2160. So it meets delivery req no? The extra width of course if not useful as would be extra top and bottom here but still.

Yes, but doesn't Milano make a VERY SERIOUS POINT? Shouldn't RAVEN be scalable from 16:9? They got everything else right. It is a first generation camera after all...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Yes, but doesn't Milano make a VERY SERIOUS POINT? Shouldn't RAVEN be scalable from 16:9? They got everything else right. It is a first generation camera after all...

That's what the new SCARLET WEAPON will presumably do.

You can't have everything for a $5950 brain.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I sort of grasp your point, Meaning you would like the top and bottom as well as side to side to scale to true 4.5K. So you are suggesting the extra on the sides is kind of useless then.

I guess I was still going by the thinking that it is going to be a very nice 4K in and of itself. Yes. Compared to true scale down from 5k to 4K it won't be as sweet - but the camera is a little over 5000 US.

 

[Mark T Workman]

That's what the new SCARLET WEAPON will presumably do.

You can't have everything for a $5950 brain.

NG on a new release! SERIOUSLY! If this is the thinking. NG! Especially thinking that this is a FLYING CAMERA. NOT GOOD!

 

[Akin A]

4.5K WS can be useful for downscaling/reframing a 4K WS delivery. It's not much but I'd welcome it. I shoot 6K with 5.5K guides for reframing and downscale that to 4K.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

this camera is going to be bad ass no matter how you slice it.. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want SLIGHTLY larger sensor with comparable price get on the BMD line.. other wise get an epic out. The raven is perfect for what is, looking forward to holding it in my hands

 

[Nick Morrison]

NG on a new release! SERIOUSLY! If this is the thinking. NG! Especially thinking that this is a FLYING CAMERA. NOT GOOD!

I don't understand. The camera was originally ONLY 4K. Then it became 4.5K. And now you want 5K? All for $6K?

I love RED, and their generosity, but my guess is there's a limit to what they were able todo. They had room to make the sensor wider (not taller), so they gave that extra 1/2 K to the customer FOR FREE.

I see only good in that!!

 

[Nick Morrison]

this camera is going to be bad ass no matter how you slice it.. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want SLIGHTLY larger sensor with comparable price get on the BMD line.. other wise get an epic out. The raven is perfect for what is, looking forward to holding it in my hands

Or wait. And get the new Scarlet. Which is being announced at NAB in April.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I sort of grasp your point, Meaning you would like the top and bottom as well as side to side to scale to true 4.5K. So you are suggesting the extra on the sides is kind of useless then.

I guess I was still going by the thinking that it is going to be a very nice 4K in and of itself. Yes. Compared to true scale down from 5k to 4K it won't be as sweet - but the camera is a little over 5000 US.

I shoot HD 16x9, so yes...for me RAVEN is only 4K...that point I totally agree with.

 

[Nick Morrison]

NG on a new release! SERIOUSLY! If this is the thinking. NG! Especially thinking that this is a FLYING CAMERA. NOT GOOD!

Also - Raven isn't ONLY for flying. It's one of the many things it's designed to do.

The Alexa Mini is used as a "flying camera" too and it's only 3.2K, and people seem perfectly happy to spend $50K+ on it!

Just sayin' - Raven is tremendous BANG FOR THE BUCK...especially when compared to rest of market!

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Or wait. And get the new Scarlet. Which is being announced at NAB in April.

word, Ive thought about this. And i hope i made the right choice. I have work lined up this spring and summer where this raven is gonna kill it, if the opportunity comes up to upgrade this camera to the scarlet i may do that, or take the chance to upgrade my epic, as of now having 2 cameras working is a good thing for me