3k S35 Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael Hastings]

So what kinda mounts do you need for this?

It is a straightforward modern mount like Canon EF or Nikon. No more difficult for someone to develop/reverse engineer a smart mount for four thirds lenses than for Canon EF or Nikon. And since it is an open standard it seems like it would actually be easier to develop and maybe not have the potential legal problems that might come up if RED itself puts an EF mount on their cameras.

I have been under the impression that the camera companies can't really stop other companies like sigma, tokina, etc. from making compatible lenses, but that the proprietary/patented mounts with internal software were a different story. In other words you can't stop someone from making a lens that RESPONDS to the commands the mount sends out, but both copyright and patent law could stop you from making the mount that contains the code that ISSUES the commands. EF and Nikon electronic mounts are proprietary, but the four/thirds system was designed to be used by multiple camera makers. Again, C mount and B4 are open standard dumb mounts but don't really bring much to the table in 2008.

I thought that someone like birger or Alesniak could get away with it only because they are so small and in the case of birger always previously was used in a noncompetitive industrial/cctv type of market. But RED would be a direct competitor with deep enough pockets to be worthwhile going after. Not trying to create FUD, just wondering if anyone (RED or others) could expound on whether there are legal issues AND whether we might be on to something with the four/thirds idea.

 

[Brian Chapman]

I agree with this. The only reason they posted the specs on the 13th was to show their product line intentions. As Jim says, expect things to change. They want our feedback on what their current Scarlet offerings, and what we want. There is time to change things. Heck they aren't coming out until next year anyway.

Once Jim gets done his forum break and talking to R&D he'll let us know what's going down. So keep hammering out the specifics on what we want and we can go from there.

If you're just here to bitch and be negative then please sit and read, don't post unless you've got valid feedback to what the camera should have.

There's one valid truth to everything RED. #1) Anything is possible. (2) Everything changes.

Only question to Jim from me is. Financially, how many units would you have to sell to make this idea work?

If he can hammer out the camera at a good price, give us a basic release date, and how many units it'll take to get them to do it then we'll see how the poll goes. Get the magic number of valid (yes VALID) ID's ((or emailed pre-order yes's)), and maybe we'll be holding multiple Scarlets next year.

 

[brandon thomas]

a S35 3k would be my dream too, but I'll take the S35 5k, and be more than happy with that.

 

[Petros Kolyvas]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I think the poll is an unfortunate side effect of Jim's openness with us.

While I was both excited and somewhat disappointed by the announcement, having thought there are too many options and the one everyone was hoping for somehow missing; a 3K S35 @60 FPS camera is perfect for almost everyone I know making film, video, documentary, etc. - putting a price on it ourselves is getting a little to on "crazy stalker" side of things.

I would be willing more than willing for fork over the $7K estimated price for the Scarlet S35 mm body if it did 60fps @ 3k. Heck I'd go to $8K for that kind of feature set, knowing full well my investment will double with the needed accessories and then skyrocket when I get my first lens.

I was initially disturbed by the fact that all the "brains" that are of interest either have less than the 120fps that scarlet was originally moving towards, and that the s35 model doesn't even do 60fps until it's rolling at 2k. (I know and expect things to continue to change.)

That being said I think 60 fps is the right mark. It's why I love the HVX/HPX cameras, and if I ever needed a 120fps camera I could just pickup a fixed lens scarlet, have it work with all my accessories and keep it as a second camera for shoots that require such a thing.

So yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting MORE. I do think it's ridiculous, almost inconsiderate to say what price we want it at.

Red is a business as others have said and I don't believe there's anything wrong in rewarding those businesses (with profits *gasp*) if they're making products you want/need/love.

Wow, lost my train of thought there....

 

[Nick Ambrose]

a S35 3k would be my dream too, but I'll take the S35 5k, and be more than happy with that.

The problem with the S35 3K (excluding price/profitability issues etc)
is that it doesn't seem it would take very hi-res stills.

For me the beauty of the S35/5K is that I can throw out my D300 and Sony video camera and just use one device instead (in theory)

 

[brainburst]

The proposal for a 3K with a larger sensor is as an alternative to the 2/3" model.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

The proposal for a 3K with a larger sensor is as an alternative to the 2/3" model.

No, to the S35mm 5K one.

 

[brainburst]

I've already stated my case for NOTasking for a S35 sized 3k sensor.

All of the existing sensors use either a 5.4 or 6 micron cell form factor which is fine. We don't need a bigger cell form factor. No one is complaining about it on any of the other sensors. So there is no compelling reason to create a larger cell structure to stretch a 3k sensor over a S35 frame. In fact the single largest factor in the expense of a sensor is the silicon wafer. So Red would have the same materials cost as a 5k sensor plus the added expense of another design. That is simply not practical or profitable. Red is a company that deserves to be profitable. People demanding a full S35 sized sensor are not being reasonable PERIOD. It doesn't matter how popular a concept is if it can't be profitable for the producer.
The existing cell size is fine for 3K

The only problem camera in the entire lineup is the 2/3" one.

 

[Zach Swena]

This proposal is to add to the line not replace a cam. The Fps issue with the 5k version might be able to be fixed. I don't know. I do know however that there are people that want 5k and we shouldn't be asking Jim to replace one cam with a mostly inferior cam for the same price. I think that RED can hit a price point somewhere under the price of the 5k S35 and hopefully a bit under half way between it and 2/3". If you have $7k laying around and want to spend it than ask for the S35 at higher frame rate. Jim will tell you if he can do it or not. You might just have to go with an Epic which isn't to much more than the S35 by your standards I think. The scarlet was made to have lower format options and lower frame rate than the Epic anyway.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I see this thread only as sharing thoughts, not rant or anything else.

The new direction that RED took on the 13th is great and the 2/3" Interchangeable model seems to be the one for me. It's a dream option.

But they also introduced a S35mm sensor module for under 10K $ [something that I didn't think is possible so soon] and this opens a whole new field of possibilities.

A S35mm 3K camera would literally be beyond my dreams, cause I never did dream about such a cam. :biggrin:

If it's possible technically and if it would be a good business decision for RED, why not?

 

[Petros Kolyvas]

And after some looking around there seem be very a widely available array of C-mount adapters for all sorts of common 35mm lenses.

I wonder what effect that would have, if any, on the end user experience?

Would the C/Mini Red/B4 mount be able to hold the weight?

 

[brainburst]

I know I keep saying this but, the cell size is so small on the 2/3" sensor that standard 35 glass will not cut it. It will be very soft. The smaller the sensor size is, the better the glass has to be. This is not like film where the grain size is consistent for a given stock. Smaller Cmos/CCD sensor sizes are unforgiving of mismatched lenses.

 

[Petros Kolyvas]

I know I keep saying this but, the cell size is so small on the 2/3" sensor that standard 35 glass will not cut it. It will be very soft. The smaller the sensor size is, the better the glass has to be. This is not like film where the grain size is consistent for a given stock. Smaller Cmos/CCD sensor sizes are unforgiving of mismatched lenses.

And now I'm asking because I don't know, but would S35 glass really be worse quality than all those small proprietary mini-red-mount lenses?

I honestly have no idea, and I realize we're talking about a still imaginary product. Where can I go to read up and study more of this?

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

Just had another idea, to expand on my previous idea. If you go with the RED Ones current sensor, switch out the RGBG filter infront of the sensor (if at all possible) and replace with a RGB/Luma filter (and group 4 pixels together, end result is 2k), to increase the DR a little.

 

[Stu Mannion]

I would love a 3k s35 scarlet too...

However not at the expense of the fixed lens 2/3". The fixed lens 2/3" offers one huge advantage over all the other cameras we're discussing here: auto-focus. Scoff if you like but auto-focus is very handy for many real-world doco, EFP and even drama shoots. Not everyone will want the short depth of field that s35 offers, 2/3" may be perfect for more run-and-gun type of operations.

 

[jetaddiction]

are my fast nikon lens good enough for thr 2/3 scarlet. have a 24mm 2.0 ,35mm 1.4, 55mm 1.2 . 85mm 1.8 . ( will get the 85mm 1.4 )

 

[brainburst]

I would love a 3k s35 scarlet too...

Uh I wish people would stop asking for this. A 4/3 size sensor is all you need. Really. And much more likely to happen than a full s35 3k sensor.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

EDIT: OK, I just read Jim's reply for this on ScarletUser:

http://scarletuser.com/showpost.php?p=38696&postcount=39

---

So, a question has been asked and now we have the answer. It's communication, I don't see the problem.

BTW, I asked Joseph Hutson to make the identical poll on ScarletUser, simply because I'm too lazy to learn how to make a poll myself. :whistling:

So, if there's some additional negativity, it should be on me.

I hope that isn't the case.

---

I will allow myself to ask another question.

Do the 5K MysteriumX or Monstro technology allow pixel-coupling for higher DR, similar to the Fuji sensor?

Halved resolution in favor of HDR, is this an option for RED sensors?

 

[Tobias Roediger]

OK I've figured out what my path is:
Purchase Scarlet 2/3" with full accessories when it comes out.
Purchase the FF35 Scarlet Brain when it launches (which will work with nearly every accessory).
Rent FF35 Epic as I need the additional features.

I figure this will get me working with RED footage ASAP, allowing more time/experience shooting, finishing and compositing with R3Ds. The bigger sensor will only make things better later on.

 

[Zach Swena]

Ok, It is good to have some info from Jim on the other thread.

Questions that I would like answered.

1. Do the same production cost issues apply to the 4/3" sensor idea?
2. Is there any way to make a camera that would take 4/3" or 35mm glass (probably either or depending on the sensor size) for this price point?

The main thrust of this idea is that there is a need for a entry level or a bit more than entry level cam that can take glass that is cheap and if possible has glass that is interchangeable with the higher end scarlets.

If this is totally impossible than just tell us Jim when you get back.

I do want to let everyone at RED know that I really appreciate what you guys have come out with so far!!! This is the greatest company I have seen in a long time.

If this is not possible right now than just keep in mind the suggestions for the future when technology advances a bit.

RED is awesome!!!!!!!!!!........... Just want to be clear on that.