3k S35 Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wiyum]

No brainburst, it doesn't seem like a natural fit. The 18.432mm x 10.368mm that a 3K 16x9 sensor with the 6 micron Monstro pixels is an unnatural thing in several ways. All of the Red formats currently conform to professional standards, and have mounts for widely-available lenses or lenses that Red is manufacturing. This contrived format would be too big to use 16mm or 2/3" lenses, so it would be relegated to 35mm motion and still lenses. The 2.0 crop factor for still lenses would be burdensome, and users that could afford 35mm motion picture lenses would likely have little interest in this when they could get a true S35 camera for a little more, and get 5k to boot. The Monstro tech is clearly the least-developed, and delivery on those cameras is later as a result, to say nothing of the fact that all of the Monstro cameras currently are stills format cameras, with anticipated double-usage as stills cameras that wouldn't apply to this proposed camera. Monstro is clearly the top-of-the-line tech, not the thing that's to be tossed out to those with tiny budgets.

I'd love a true S35 3K camera with the gigantic 10 micron pixels and nice 60 fps output, but such a thing would be financially unviable for Red. This thing you propose sounds like a Frankenstein's monster of compromises and bad ideas and I for one would much rather have a 2/3" 3K 120 fps Scarlet with a wide variety of cinema lenses to choose from.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

.... unless he was talking about killing off the other S35 Scarlet.

Something like that. :biggrin:

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

Well anything above $7k would be to much because the existing S35 model is priced at that point. I think it should be less than $4k for the brain. You could use the good portion of defective sensors from higher end models. This practice is very common in any industry involving silicon. It shouldn't cost much more than $1k more to make the big sensor vs the 2/3" one especially if defective units can be salvaged.

Why not use the Mysterium sensor that would come in from RED One trades in to Epic? 3k at 60fps... It would be a sensor downgrade option to the Scarlet S35. Would save RED money actually. Of course you don't get the Mysterium-X at that point though. And it would need to be either:

1.) windowed (physical matte inside brain)
2.) mounted closer to the lens
3.) Use 4k (limits to 30fps) and use each group of 4 pixels (RGBG) as one pixel and you get 2k post processing.


Down sides are no increase in Dynamic Range.

 

[brainburst]

Not looking for the holy grail...

Not looking for the holy grail...

The 2.0 crop factor for still lenses would be burdensome,

HUH? Are you kidding me? What's more burdensome than having to buy/rent expensive glass?
What you see is what you get. It is not a hardship.

The hardship will be when we see how noisy these sensors are. The hardship will be when, with mediocre glass, these cameras won't look any better than an EX-1. The Red zoom for example which is barely adequate for the RED1, would not be good enough for this camera whose pixel size is 40% smaller.
All I can say is wait and see. You might be disappointed. You are being bowled over by numbers. 3k for only 2.5k! Yes that is cheap. I am not looking for a miracle. I am willing to pay more for something better. 4- 4.5k for something that will work decently with the lenses at my disposal and have a decent S/N ratio and dynamic range. (The specs are for the processing. The 2/3" sensor won't live up to the specs.)

 

[FMG battery]

Sure. These are the specs that I have been saying for a long time are really missing from the market:

35mm
2K (from 3K Bayer)
60fps
RAW

Do that, and it will sell like hotcakes. Keep in mind, though, that these specs are pretty similar to Red One. And it would also require fabricating entirely new sensors with larger pixels to cover the S35 frame size.

While it might be nice, I doubt they will do it, mainly because like I said, it would require an entirely new type of sensor.

you wish.. :usd:

what do you think?.. is red a jannard charity company?.. ehehehehehe

sorry.. to much fun w/ your thinkings

 

[Gordon Prince]

The point is that could be possible to deliver:

35mm
4K (from 6K Bayer) whatever
60fps
RAW

for under $3500 instead $12000 or $7000

and it's not.

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Why not use the Mysterium sensor that would come in from RED One trades in to Epic? 3k at 60fps... It would be a sensor downgrade option to the Scarlet S35. Would save RED money actually. Of course you don't get the Mysterium-X at that point though. And it would need to be either:

1.) windowed (physical matte inside brain)
2.) mounted closer to the lens
3.) Use 4k (limits to 30fps) and use each group of 4 pixels (RGBG) as one pixel and you get 2k post processing.


Down sides are no increase in Dynamic Range.

you're talking like RED ONE market will stop forever and no one will use it after the release of epic and scarlet...

 

[Tobias Roediger]

I'll add that I'd pay more than the polls listed $3,500 for it as well.

 

[diskojerk]

Maybe RED should just forget this whole silly manufacturing thing and just take specific requests for cameras that people want with the specs they want and at the price they want. That way everybody is happy. And while they're at it, they should send a limo out to pick you up to take you to Irvine to get your custom camera to make everybody even happier. And on top of that, they should even pay everybody's bills so that they have more time to think of custom cameras and shoot their projects. But why stop there? Why not ask for a baby sitting service? Maybe everybody should get a vacation package at the destination of their choice as well. Why not.

 

[FMG battery]

Maybe RED should just forget this whole silly manufacturing thing and just take specific requests for cameras that people want with the specs they want and at the price they want. That way everybody is happy. And while they're at it, they should send a limo out to pick you up to take you to Irvine to get your custom camera to make everybody even happier. And on top of that, they should even pay everybody's bills so that they have more time to think of custom cameras and shoot their projects. But why stop there? Why not ask for a baby sitting service? Maybe everybody should get a vacation package at the destination of their choice as well. Why not.

stop whining!.. who are you guys thinking you are?.. ehehehehehe

what's the problem with asking?!!

do you guys know what it is really boooooooring?

you need to buy new brains when you're not using your OWN brains.. :sarcasm:

this is a company.. sure they are here to make money.. sure they could bring what you want for the price you can pay.. sure they will NOT do..

instead you kiss their a$$ everyday.. you think they like you.. they just like what you can do for the company..

nothing new.. reality is cruel reality is harsh.. EVERY companies are the same when money makes a difference.. on the subject of money no difference between sony panasonic canon red.. NO difference at all !










:sorcerer:

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

you're talking like RED ONE market will stop forever and no one will use it after the release of epic and scarlet...

No... I'm just assuming there will be a few hundred (maybe a thousand) people that will trade up to Epic, and a hundred or so that would want this option.

 

[Tobias Roediger]

FMG battery & diskojerk, in several threads Jim and others have said that RED is listening to comments about the release. Even if requests don't get implemented in this round of "brains" its possible that the next round could include some of these features... which after all is the beauty of the DSMC system that they have created.

 

[FMG battery]

"FMG battery & diskojerk".. wth?.. did you read WELL my post?..
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stop whining!.. who are you guys thinking you are?.. ehehehehehe

what's the problem with asking?!!

do you guys know what it is really boooooooring?

you need to buy new brains when you're not using your OWN brains.. :sarcasm:

this is a company.. sure they are here to make money.. sure they could bring what you want for the price you can pay.. sure they will NOT do..

instead you kiss their a$$ everyday.. you think they like you.. they just like what you can do for the company..

nothing new.. reality is cruel reality is harsh.. EVERY companies are the same when money makes a difference.. on the subject of money no difference between sony panasonic canon red.. NO difference at all !










:sorcerer:

 

[brainburst]

The point is that could be possible to deliver:

35mm
4K (from 6K Bayer) whatever
60fps
RAW

for under $3500 instead $12000 or $7000

and it's not.

No that is NOT the point. RED could simply deliver a sensor that is larger using the same fabs as for their 4k and up sensors. Little or no technology investment. Just smaller than the full sized sensor but still the same cell structure. There are a slew of decent lenses that would work with a larger sensor, but not with the 2/3". The original poster is admittedly asking too much. But 2/3" is not going to be good enough. It simply can't be unless the laws of physics have changed or radical new technology is being implemented. I've seen no mention of either.

 

[Chris Newman]

Another argument I have heard against an S35 Scarlet is that you have to focus more carefully, but this isn't necessarily true. The sensitivity will be much higher, so you can just shoot with a narrower aperture whenever focusing is difficult. It gives you the option.

 

[diskojerk]

not whining.

Just expressing exasperation about people being offered a great product and still asking for more.

RED "Hey everybody we listened to you and decided to do this with the product"

EVERYBODY "Umm... yeah... that's really great and all, but now after taking everyone's suggestions and seeing what you're presenting... it would really be better if you did this instead"

Maybe just wait for the product to come out before knocking on it.

 

[Cristina S]

This is a process of negotiation. They are here tracing your reactions. If you say i will buy no matter what price, this will mean higher prices.

Would anyone do differently?

 

[brainburst]

Just expressing exasperation about people being offered a great product and still asking for more.

Maybe just wait for the product to come out before knocking on it.

Do you see how those statements are a little illogical? The product hasn't come out yet and you still say it is great. What we are "knocking on" is based upon known issues that will never change unless the laws of physics change.

DOF for a 2/3 sensor ain't changing
Requirement for better glass because of stated cell size ain't changing.
Noise Dynamic range might surprise us, but that would require radical change in sensor technology which no one at Red has suggested. They only mention "improvement". Is it 40-50% better? it will have to be just to look as good.

On the other hand you have a picture and 3K spec. But you know it's a great product before it has come out.

 

[Zach Swena]

Let's stop telling red that they can't produce something for this price. If it is truly to much features than Jim will tell us. At first he was skeptic about his abilities to follow through with the suggestions he received after the first scarlet announcement. He ended up finding a way to do it and he did it in a way that I don't think any of us dreamed of at first (untill he started hinting). If he thinks he can do it than he will. If he can't he'll tell us. Lets try to keep away exaggerated sarcasm.

If you have suggestions as to how this cam can be accomplished or obstacles that stand in the way than please post. If you just want to flame than this isn't the place to do it. Also if you don't think this can be achieved at this price or have objections than please answer opposing objections before stating your own. Please substance only!!

I might state out some points about the proposed model addition of
3k S35 for $3.5k (3k total pixel resolution that could produce a full 2k final)

This would not require the expensive electronics that the current 5k S35 requires. 5k requires a lot more expensive electronics and "brains" than 3k. The sensor is only a small part of the "brain". I don't know how much the sensor cost's RED so I can't estimate exactly but we can estimate roughly.

First you are not going to get anything that takes 6k video for less than what they offered. That is out of the question.

What I am talking about is to first put the 2/3" cam in a S35 case. This from the pics looks like just changing the lens adapter with 4 screws. Don't tell me that this would be expensive.
Than they just need to change the sensor to a larger sensor @ 3k pixels across. This is where the price jump happens. I find it hard to think that they would need to charge more than $1-1.5k for this depending on how it is accomplished. This is basically a sensor only upgrade from the $2.5k 2/3"

They could do this sensor upgrade several ways.

They could use the the spare sensors from the sensor upgrade they promised the R1 users just masked down to 3k (preferably with firmware so they can offer a firmware upgrade to 4k res for a sum of money)
Or they can use existing chip tech to create a sensor close but smaller than the 30mm x 15mm of the 5k S35 that would take 3k total pixel res.

These first two options have a small disadvantage in that they would have a small crop factor. Someone said around 2x. I would prefer not to have this but it would be a ton better than the 3.9x crop when using 35mm glass on the 2/3" sensor. It also would allow for a lot cheaper glass to be used.

Or they could make new tech to create a new sensor that could take 3k at 30mm x 15mm. This option would produce the best image result but also the least practical. Maybe Jim can figure out how to do this without breaking the bank.

There has to be some reason he didn't take the specs will change thing off after the announcement on the 13th. It must mean that he will consider suggestions and see if he wants to incorporate them.

If I am unreasonable with the less than $3500 brain only price tag than Jim or someone at RED can correct me. This model would probably sell ok at $4k. $5k and up are very close to the $7k tag on the 6k scarlet. Remember the sensor is only a part of the brain. They have said they are willing to sell the brains for $2500, all we are asking is for a different piece of metal on the front and a physically larger sensor at the same resolution.

 

[FMG battery]

This is a process of negotiation. They are here tracing your reactions. If you say i will buy no matter what price, this will mean higher prices.

Would anyone do differently?

on my mouche ma belle..