3k S35 Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zach Swena]

Is there anything that would keep you guys from making a 3k version of the S35 scarlet?

Also are there other people out there that can see the need for something like this?

Some advantages:

1. All 35mm Nicon/Cannon/PL lenses could be used
2. There would be no need to get a whole new set of lenses when upgrading or adding a second brain. Existing glass could be leveraged.
3. This would be a low end option for DSLR users wanting to get into video. They aren't going to want to spend $7k just to use their existing glass and aren't going to want to go to 2/3"
4. This would be a sweet spot for people considering large format competitors that don't want to reduce the format size. A higher res option without going with a smaller sensor

Unless I am mistaken a lot of people don't care about 5k. 3k is sufficient for most, but they don't want to use the 2/3" for various reasons be it existing glass, upgrade problems, or other issues. People won't want to spend $4k extra just for resolution they don't want yet they want to use their existing glass.

So what's not to like or lacking that prevents you shooting documentaries, news inserts, sports, regional commercials and yes of course independent films?"

"S16 is not bad.. good enough for indies."

Did you even read what I wrote?
Higher pixel density on a smaller sensor means:

• Greater noise.
• Less dynamic range (It doesn't matter what processing happens after the fact. A sensor is an analog device with analog limitations.)
• Need for better, more expensive glass. Name one low cost piece of glass that will resolve 3k on a 2/3" sensor. Standard 16mm glass will not cut it. Low cost Video HD glass will not cut it.
• Video type depth of field. Expensive adapters required for 35mm DOF

A larger sensor means:

• Better S/N
• Better Dynamic range
• Ability to use any decent 35mm glass including SLRs
• 35mm DOF without expensive adapters.

Good enough for the past is not good enough for the future!
The Scarlet needs to be unequivocally better than super 16!

So summing it all up.

3k@120fps S35 for under $3.5k

Please!!!!

 

[Sarah C.]

Oh.. I would like one of those too!! Sign me up.

~Sarah

 

[Zach Swena]

I can't sign you up. All you can do is vote in the poll and hope Jim will listen.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Sure. These are the specs that I have been saying for a long time are really missing from the market:

35mm
2K (from 3K Bayer)
60fps
RAW

Do that, and it will sell like hotcakes. Keep in mind, though, that these specs are pretty similar to Red One. And it would also require fabricating entirely new sensors with larger pixels to cover the S35 frame size.

While it might be nice, I doubt they will do it, mainly because like I said, it would require an entirely new type of sensor.

 

[Tico Llaurador]

Tom, agreed, my sentiments exactly.

Yerrite on the mullah...

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I like this idea very much.

And this would be yet another way to appease those REDOne users who are worried. :biggrin:

I'm not sure about the price you've given [3,5k $], but a S35mm 3K camera would seriously kick ass.

- good low light.
- even low[er] noise.
- possible kickass dynamic range.
- whatnot. :biggrin:

Bundle that with Monstro technology and an 16 bit AD converter and you got a dream. This cam can produce some evil DR.

---

Master Jim, now that you have decided to make a S35mm camera under 10k $, why not make it even better.

Seriously - any resolution above 3K [2K resolved] can kiss my ass. :biggrin:

Excuse my French.

So, let's take a look at our new daydream:

- S35mm sensor. Monstro tech.
- 3K RedCode Raw 42.
- 120 fps.
- PL, Nikon and Canon lens mount option.
- 5000-8000 $ for the brain.

This is like Peter Majtan's RED Maroon idea.

And for the still market, I'm sure a lot of people will be taking that over a higher resolution, because of the dynamic range.

Just my to stotinkas .

 

[Zach Swena]

Well anything above $7k would be to much because the existing S35 model is priced at that point. I think it should be less than $4k for the brain. You could use the good portion of defective sensors from higher end models. This practice is very common in any industry involving silicon. It shouldn't cost much more than $1k more to make the big sensor vs the 2/3" one especially if defective units can be salvaged.

 

[Justin Anderson]

The problem with this is that RED would have to redesign their sensors. Currently, they can apply the same Monstoro sensor technology to 4 different camera brains. Same with Mysterium-X.

To make a S35 sized chip at 3K, they'd have to completely re-engineer their sensor technology and reconfigure the spacing and circuitry of the pixels. The research & development that would have to be done for just this one camera would bring up the costs tremendously.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Well anything above $7k would be to much because the existing S35 model is priced at that point. I think it should be less than $4k for the brain. You could use the good portion of defective sensors from higher end models. This practice is very common in any industry involving silicon. It shouldn't cost much more than $1k more to make the big sensor vs the 2/3" one especially if defective units can be salvaged.

I don't think that would work. Such a sensor would have bigger pixels and a different structure, AFAIK.

It would be a totally different sensor, but I think it would be easier to build than a 360000K Godzilla-Oh-My-GAAD sensor. :usd:

 

[brainburst]

Patently false

Patently false

The problem with this is that RED would have to redesign their sensors. Currently, they can apply the same Monstoro sensor technology to 4 different camera brains. Same with Mysterium-X.

To make a S35 sized chip at 3K, they'd have to completely re-engineer their sensor technology and reconfigure the spacing and circuitry of the pixels. The research & development that would have to be done for just this one camera would bring up the costs tremendously.

This is simply unttrue!!!! They don't have to build a 35mm sized sensor. It just needs to be bigger to accommodate either the 5.4 or 6 micron sized cells. They could use the same exact technology as any of their other 4 5 or 6k cameras! They could even use the rejects if defective pixels fell outside of the 3k window area!
I'm not a 35mm sized purist. Something close to APS-C would be great!

 

[Zach Swena]

The problem with this is that RED would have to redesign their sensors. Currently, they can apply the same Monstoro sensor technology to 4 different camera brains. Same with Mysterium-X.

To make a S35 sized chip at 3K, they'd have to completely re-engineer their sensor technology and reconfigure the spacing and circuitry of the pixels. The research & development that would have to be done for just this one camera would bring up the costs tremendously.

Well they currently have 2 types of Mysterium-X (3.4micron and 5.4 micron) and 6 micron for Monstoro. This is exactly what they have done with the 2/3" model. There are only the fixed lens and removable lens versions using the 3.4 micron sensor. Sure it might mean R&D cost but it would certainly cost less than the 3.4 micron one did. In fact each pixel size is only used for 2 camera models with the exception of the Monstoro which has 4 models (2 extra are the 616 and 645)
The extra expenditure and lower profit margin would be taken care of by the sheer number of cams they would sell at this price point. This would be a entry level cam. At entry level the margins are lower but this is picked up by quantity to bring total profit higher than what is made on the high end. In most markets this is where the money is made. Entry level mass production while the company's name is made by the high end products. RED has high end products that mulch competition, now they need a truly competitive entry level 35mm.

 

[brainburst]

Please don't ask for too much! It won't be taken seriously! Everyone wants the dream camera for next to nothing! I would like to modify this request. It doesn't have to be full 35mm sized. It just needs to have the full sized photoreceptors. A sensor that ends up at something close to APS-C size that would accept cost effective glass, even with cropping, would be great!.
This doesn't have to entail anymore R&D
It can use existing technology. The same exact silicon. With higher yields!
All other camera parts could be exactly the same (no separate 2/3" camera body) Really! This is a cost effective winner

 

[Zach Swena]

I would like to modify this request. It doesn't have to be full 35mm sized. It just needs to have the full sized photoreceptors. Something close to APS-C size that would accept cost effective glass even with cropping would be fine. Really!

Exactly. It does need to be able to take the regular cost effective and non cost effective Nikon/Cannon/PL mount glass though.

S35 isn't full 35mm either. FF35 is the full frame 35mm part. It just needs to have minimal cropping with 35mm glass.

 

[Tom Lowe]

And this would be yet another way to appease those REDOne users who are worried. :biggrin:

No way, dude. I think you have this backwards. A bargain-priced 3K S35 Scarlet that could overcrank would seriously piss off R1 owners, since 95% of R1 projects right now are finishing at 2K anyway. It would undercut R1s.

 

[Zach Swena]

Why would this make R1 users mad? When you buy something you have to expect the prices to come down.
They can get an epic out of their Red 1 and add a few of these as B cams. They could even sell that epic to someone that needs the resolution and get a whole fleet of these.
Wouldn't you want to be able to turn 1 cam into 2 or 3?

 

[Tom Lowe]

Zach, I am not saying it's right; I'm just saying that some of the small minority of crybabies would cry about it. I am not one of them. It certainly wouldn't make R1 owners feel better to see a $5K S35 3K Scarlet, as my friend Rado seemed to be suggesting in the post I quoted.... unless he was talking about killing off the other S35 Scarlet.

 

[brainburst]

I know I keep saying this, but it is the point that keeps getting missed...
It doesn't have to be full 35mm sized sensor. It just needs to be larger. The same silicon could be used for all sensors. If the 3k ends up being between a 1" and a 4/3" sensor, it would still be a huge improvement!
A good quality 35 mm lens would be fine with this sensor! Who cares about cropping? What you see is what you get and you'll be using the sweet spot of the lens.

 

[Zach Swena]

Zach, I am not saying it's right; I'm just saying that some of the small minority of crybabies would cry about it. I am not one of them. It certainly wouldn't make R1 owners feel better to see a $5K S35 3K Scarlet, as my friend Rado seemed to be suggesting in the post I quoted.... unless he was talking about killing off the other S35 Scarlet.

I understand that there are complainers in every group. I just was trying to make any one of that group that might read my post understand how it could work for their advantage.

$5k for a 3k s35 seems to close to the $7k for 5k s35.
somewhere under $4k seems closer to a realistic price point. Keep in mind that $4k is $1500 more than the 2/3" brain. That seems like enough for the sensor upgrade. Keep in mind that most of the cost in these items is the R&D not manufacturing. I personally would like to see it under $3.5k

The only time I care about cropping is either if it is drastic (like it would be if using 35mm lenses on the 2/3") or if it makes it so the final effective resolution is less than 2K
I don't think either of those will be issues with what you are proposing brainburst.

 

[brainburst]

Doesn't this seem right?

Doesn't this seem right?

And they could do it with out changing much at all!

 

[Eki Halkka]

Everyone wants the dream camera for next to nothing!

I think the above summarizes this thread nicely.

I want RED to stay in business for years to come. They need to make profit in order to do that.

$2500 2/3" brain is also insanely cheap, even if the necessary accessories doubled the price. $7000 for a s35 sensor camera is just madness.

Red is already offering the cameras next to nothing - *all* the Scarlets are an incredible bargain already.