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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

24 FPS

Patrick Tresch said:
24p DCP is dead for me. And I'll push all productions I do the 25p way.
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Uhhhhh............ OK. But just be aware that virtually every studio worldwide that is doing theatrical releases won't be doing it that way.
 
David Battistella said:
23.98 is more of a North American standard, it is also a video standard and not a film standard (film does not run at 23.98fps it runs at 24), 23.98 corresponds with the electrical frequency of North America and 50fps corresponds with Europe.
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I'm pretty sure that America is 60Hz and Europe is 50Hz, and that is why the US standard for TV is 30fps and Europe is 25fps. Then the .98 is for an audio track in the signal.

But correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Jason L said:
I'm pretty sure that America is 60Hz and Europe is 50Hz, and that is why the US standard for TV is 30fps and Europe is 25fps. Then the .98 is for an audio track in the signal.

But correct me if I'm wrong.
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It has to do with audio but not exactly in the way you might think. The 59.94 rate is a direct result of developing a color broadcasting scheme that would remain compatible with the black and white receivers that were used at the time. This was done by adding a color subcarrier to the signal. It was found that at 60Hz, this subcarrier could cause visible interference artifacts with the FM based sound carrier, so the frequency was slightly reduced to eliminate that problem. This is actually explained quite well in a Wikipedia entry you can find at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC.
 
M Most said:
Uhhhhh............ OK. But just be aware that virtually every studio worldwide that is doing theatrical releases won't be doing it that way.
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I had this discussion here when I released a feature for cinema. It was the first movie with a wide release without having a 24p distribution. They where kind of scared. We didn't have any problem. It looks like that there is only one projector/server wich is not yet 25p enabled. It's located in Palestine and was a gift of a Swiss NGO, a second hand DCP projector.

Pat
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I had this discussion here when I released a feature for cinema. It was the first movie with a wide release without having a 24p distribution. They where kind of scared. We didn't have any problem. It looks like that there is only one projector/server wich is not yet 25p enabled. It's located in Palestine and was a gift of a Swiss NGO, a second hand DCP projector.

Pat
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interesting to know...

The amount of time and money spent reworking practical lights (especially on big B-units shooting fast shutters and slowmo action) in Uk is def not nothing... but I doubt it is big enough to change the 24p habit.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I had this discussion here when I released a feature for cinema. It was the first movie with a wide release without having a 24p distribution. They where kind of scared. We didn't have any problem. It looks like that there is only one projector/server wich is not yet 25p enabled. It's located in Palestine and was a gift of a Swiss NGO, a second hand DCP projector.
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It's not just about theatrical projection. For the studios, it's about distribution in multiple world formats. 24fps lends itself to relatively simple conversions to both 60i and 50i for world video distribution, and 24fps for worldwide theatrical. 25fps does not translate particularly well to 60i, so while it might work well in Europe and other territories with 50i broadcast systems (and 25fps HD) it is not quite that straightforward for the rest of the world.
 
M Most said:
It's not just about theatrical projection. For the studios, it's about distribution in multiple world formats. 24fps lends itself to relatively simple conversions to both 60i and 50i for world video distribution, and 24fps for worldwide theatrical. 25fps does not translate particularly well to 60i, so while it might work well in Europe and other territories with 50i broadcast systems (and 25fps HD) it is not quite that straightforward for the rest of the world.
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you are (as often the case) persuasive and probably correct... but if you accept the audio artifacts of 25 to 24fps (which some do) a HD version of the 'slow pal with a 3:2 insertion conversion' to 60i can work (sorry if I misremember the terms/name)...

regards

Michael

PS there is probably still good universal mastering white papers on both Dircreet's and Avid's web sites that might ilustrate your point for you (Mr Most)
 
well, you're right there is a noticeable difference (some can notice)

and no worries, pretty much everybody seems to call me crazy for it but i love the hfr look of 48 and 60 fps (not for everything)

course, i absolutely HATE interpolation on tv's... always turn it off - although it is useful for 'training' purposes
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
Call me crazy, but I can't stand the look of 25fps. I know many will argue this, but it's definitely possible to see the difference.
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Do you mean 24p vs 25p ? Or 50i? I don't see the 24p to 25p difference.... (Don't forget that most of the 35mm film projectors where running faster than 24p to have more time to sell popcorn during the breaks.)

Pat
 
Michael Lindsay said:
you are (as often the case) persuasive and probably correct... but if you accept the audio artifacts of 25 to 24fps (which some do) a HD version of the 'slow pal with a 3:2 insertion conversion' to 60i can work (sorry if I misremember the terms/name)...
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I didn't say it can't work. I was trying to say that it doesn't work nearly as well, and is thus not an approach that is either used or endorsed by the major studios and/or broadcast entities.

The bigger point I was trying to make is that you don't always get to make up your own rules when you're playing in an established sandbox. One could decide that they think UHD is better than HD and therefore they're only going to deliver UHD, but no current distributor is going to accept that as a delivery element. Unless one is going to start their own chain of theaters, one doesn't get to unilaterally decide what format to finish in and deliver. There are standards in place, and good reasons for those standards.
 
wise words as usual... always good, of course, to start thinking about forming the future and better standards, especially in a fragile little old system. the only thing that seems to speak to people is showing a viable solution... and even then everybody gets all up tight about their bad investments.

just read in my local paper a few weeks ago about a new theatre going in on the side of the interstate in a soon-to-be big buying place thingy where they just stole (i mean, bought) thousands of acres of farmland that's been there since it was stole (i mean, bought) from the indians. the best review for the chain that i could find was "it's just like any other theater, there's nothing different about it at all."

:blink:

i mean c'mon, really? why? i don't even...
when will it end?
i think it ends (begins) when we decide.
i've already made that decision, but i'm one nobody and so few filmmakers seem to care about their gallery space...
i would argue that what's dragging us down is those controlling and curating content.
 
This has turned into one of those discussion I find so very, very interesting. It is what started me with Red all those years ago. Growing up filming stuff on an old RCA VHS camera (actually great image quality), 8mm tape, Hi8 tape, and the like and even in school with their high end Hi8 cameras (Panasonic 100 and 500s), I was always bothered by one single thing, that being no matter how creative we got, it just never looked "right". There was always something missing. It is in my nature to study things of this sort and knew long ago what was bothering me was a combination of image quality, depth of field, and frame rate. The RCA always had pretty good depth of field and image quality, due to its larger sensor, but was interlaced and the frame rate felt "off". The hi8 always suffered from small sensor, mated lens syndrome leaving them with a number of problems, and even the higher end ones irritated me to no end by being "converted" to a 24p "look". To this day I have to convince post people that 24p, true 24p is possible in a Red, Digital workflow. They always think 23.98 is what I mean. And this is where I start to think its time for a change in the way the industry thinks. We do digital broadcasts to digital hd sets that are capable of pretty much any standard thrown at them, and in the cases of 120hz and 240hz sets with no conversion. The digital projectors do true 24 progressive frames per second. Most of the western world has no analogue over the air signals anymore and are pushing digital over the air hard for a number of reasons. so the question becomes why do we still do 23.98? why are we still worried about "SMPTE Safe" when there is no longer a danger of the analogue signal being over amplified and destroying equipment?

These are genuine questions. If you have an answer outside of "different places aren't there yet" I would like to know. I just think that there is no reason for them anymore. Their use has ended, and the restrictions are gone, so why do we keep using them? and lastly I want to know why 24p is STILL not available on advanced Digital cameras of every manufacturer ( used the sony F55 recently. I was very irritated by the 23.98 time base option. No excuse not to have 24 anymore in my opinion) anyway. enough ranting about the old standards limiting the current tech. as for the original question, I like 24p over 23.98 or 25. I can see it. but some people cant see the difference between 240hz "smoothie vision" options on tvs and normal 24hz frame rate, so maybe I am anomaly.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
Do you mean 24p vs 25p ? Or 50i? I don't see the 24p to 25p difference.... (Don't forget that most of the 35mm film projectors where running faster than 24p to have more time to sell popcorn during the breaks.)

Pat
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24p to 25p.

British programming always looked "off" to me.
 
paulherrin said:
nice rant, ian... http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/policies/details/155-benefits-of-membership

i can tell a difference between 24/25, but 23.976 vs 24p is getting really into it... are there any comparisons available out there?
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I am sure there are some out there but I guess I misspoke. when it comes to 23.98, my problem with it isn't visual, its that it is no longer necessary. It served a purpose and that purpose no longer is around, so why not just trash it? 24 for film and digital makes complete sense now that it is a possibility end to end. Just my thought on it.

EDIT: Oh and thanks for the link. Lots of info there....hopefully ill get something out of it, or even possibly contribute
 
Another heritage of the old days is the 1:1,85 format.
Why don't we shoot and project in the full container DCI format 2048x1080? 1.89 standard and skip those odd pillar boxes?

Pat
 
Agree, there are many things that quite simply ought to go. I think that old phrase " Don't throw out the baby with the bath water" needs to be kept in mind, but realize that many of these older specs are in fact the bath water. things to be forgotten and left behind so that the focus is where it is advantageous. I like that ATSC has added true 24 and its siblings (48 etc.) to the broadcast spec, now someone needs to slap the broadcasters up the side of the head and get them on board. As far as I know they are the only ones still demanding 23.98 NTSC spec'd deliverables. I also like that they have removed the 7.5 IRE black level limitation, but again broadcasters are the problem. basing the future in the past is good for somethings, bad for others. I think these are examples of the latter where we are being given unnecessary limitations.
 
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