13th responses here...

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Great looking new products, well done.. but I'm obscelete

good point..

 

[david.dimuro]

It's not perfect, but who cares - it's revolutionary. This is just the beginning and I am glad someone has the B@LL5 to come out with this crazy stuff. In time it will become refined and we will remember this and say "i was there when the RED team took everything to the next level". I can't wait for this technology to mature.

I have been quite happy with 1080 so far and shot stuff which I thought looked awesome - like this: http://www.daviddimuroproductions.com/deadside.html

No with an outlay of about $15,000 you can get a 3k S35 scarlet for that film DOF and have so much to play with it's crazy. Man if I'm happy now I'll be jumping with glee with those specs - if it has on-board 96kh 24bit stereo audio channels, I'll be even more happy - but i can always just use my field recorder anyway.

I can see the 261mp sensor used for large panoramic shots of wildlife and nature, that will kick ass! Also getting shots for CG work in post. Don't know what use it will have for motion picture - though it does give you cropping options in post - which can allow very interesting new approaches to film making.

The coolest thing is that I'm getting a Canon DSLR with a twin lens kit as a gift, and I can use those lenses on the scarlet s35 when I buy one. You guys are geniuses! Modularity is the way of the future. Let me know when you have a workflow for 28k 3d movies down pat

Well, I better shut up now I could go on, and on about the possibilities.

peace.
david

 

[Daniel Browning]

If I want to shoot stills with a RED, I’ll have to pay “at least” 2500 dollars for a 5 MP camera. By the way, it doesn’t work with my still lenses because it’s 2/3”. Great video, specs, but not so stellar for still capture...

Right. Still photographers need bigger sensors and bigger lenses; RED charges big bucks for that.

RED appears to be adding a high quality still option without compromising motion quality, and that makes it expensive.

The other guys are adding a mediocre video option to their DSLR without giving up still quality. So if all one needs are stills or mediocre video, they're a good choice right now.

I'm glad RED is pushing the technology.

And then comes the interchangeable 2/3” Scarlet, that should sell for people who want to use their HD glass. I’m sorry but I don’t see quite a lot of users here. But even if there are tons, there is something I HONESTLY don’t get: Who will buy 2/3” Primes on mini red mount? Do we really think there will be a lot of users shelling dollars for prime lenses that does not work for any other camera in order to shoot glorious 3K on 2/3”? Wouldn’t that block the whole upgrade path of just dumping the 2/3” and going to S35? Wouldn’t a prime lens set investment make a 2/3” Scarlet close the (steep) gap to the S35 version? I believe these lenses will not see the light of the day, as soon as they realize nobody will actually have any use for them.

It depends on the cost and quality of the lenses as well as the desired application. If the lenses are $1,500 each, it would obviously be great. But I don't know what's possible.

Even if there were no RED, S16, or other 2/3" lenses, there are many 35mm lenses sharp enough to use on Scarlet as telephoto and extreme telephoto. For example, 90mm f/2.8 macro for $400.

 

[Christian Edwards]

I do believe I've heard this sort of thing before. Seriously can we let go of the death of film thing. Some will always prefer that medium. Plus it isn't like they are available yet. Still this is some really cool news, a truly modular camera system is an amazing development.
Lets see how much the accessories cost.

yes we can let go..... as of the 13th

 

[Joseph Ward]

New 3D Stereoscopic Pic!! :red_bandana:

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Nice, Jim, keep the eye candy coming!

 

[David Bourla]

Love it. But confused. For example, let's say I want a 5K Epic, does that mean the upgrade path to a Monstro sensor isn't possible?? And if I get the 6K Epic, does that mean I can't use PL mount lenses? See what I mean? I thought EVERYTHING was interchangeable.

 

[John V]

Seems to me that the way this 3d rig is setup there is no control of the lens. So how is it supposed to work in a handheld sence?

 

[Jim Exton]

Love it. But confused. For example, let's say I want a 5K Epic, does that mean the upgrade path to a Monstro sensor isn't possible?? And if I get the 6K Epic, does that mean I can't use PL mount lenses? See what I mean? I thought EVERYTHING was interchangeable.

6K Epic will take a PL mount, but you will have to shoot in cropped format as PL mount glass won't cover the whole sensor.

And your upgrade path from a 5k epic to a 6k epic is to buy the 6k brain and sell your 5k brain.

 

[david farland]

And your upgrade path from a 5k epic to a 6k epic is to buy the 6k brain and sell your 5k brain.

I missed that announcement. Where did you hear this?
D

 

[Cla-Cla-Claudius]

"DSLR killer"

"DSLR killer"

First of all: congratulations Red Team. It seems it's gonna be a new era for the cinema. But regarding the "DSLR killer" matter, I think the big men on Canon and Nikon have to be deeply relieved. I don't think Red is gonna make any harm to the DSLR market :waaa:

 

[Scott Watts]

When swapping "brians", will Red have some kind of trade-in offer such as their deal with the Red One for trade with the Scarlet/Epic?

 

[Chris Christensen]

This is what I'm looking for post-announcement - a 2/3" 3k Scarlet with a Nikon mount. This would give me compatibility with my existing gear, and give me a clear upgrade path as my business grows, but without breaking the bank for me!

That wouldn't make much sense - even wide Nikon lenses would become tele on 2/3".

 

[Jim Exton]

I missed that announcement. Where did you hear this?
D

I just read his original question again. This is so confusing because of the S35 and FF. I thought he meant from an S35 X sensor to a FF Monstro sensor, temporarily forgetting that the S35 is not going to have a monstro in it from the beginning and he/she probably wants to know specifically about the S35 Epic.

I am guessing... that there will be an upgrade path to go from a S35 Mysterium X to an S35 Monstro sensor. Just like you can with the Red One. For a price of course.

But the question someone had about a trade in discount from the S35 to the FF35 is a good one.

 

[Häakon]

One of the things that still doesn’t make sense to me is that they offered us too much choice.

Just in my own personal opinion, this is where I think what they have chosen to offer is revolutionary. Don't need high-speed? Don't have to pay for it. If it's essential to your workflow, you have options. On a really tight budget? Get the camera with a fixed lens. Want native anamorphic shooting? Get the new massive 4:3 sensor offering. Need 261 megapixels? I think you see my point. I think perhaps you're coming at it from the angle of too much to get done means that they won't be able to deliver everything - and while I do think that RED will likely live up to their "specs will change" mantra somewhere (for the better or worse), this whole product concept feels awfully thought-through to me. No one thought they could produce a RED ONE from scratch in under two years, but they did it (and it blew everyone's expectations away at the same time). While this may look like a new offering of several handfuls of cameras, it's really only two bodies with different sized slices of sensor inside. Add to that the accessories which all work with any camera you attach them to, and it's a lot less complex than it seems. It's genius, really. That doesn't mean that the task will be simple, by any means, but you know they're hard at work on this already. I would rest easy on this front.

Another concern is that, by making it modular, how much more expensive it all has gotten?

That's somewhat of a concern on the low end - though we don't know how much that fixed-lens camera is going to cost. And let's be realistic here... even the cheap end of other manufacturers' "prosumer" lines (you know, those 1/3" cameras) runs between $3K and $10K. Even if a beefed up base-model scarlet sets you back $10 grand, it's still in the same ballpark price-wise as those other guys (and you get a WHOLE lot more bang for your buck).

Now, on the flip side of that coin, let's look at what $17,500 buys you in this new lineup. After all, that got you a RED with no lens, no LCD, no battery... not even a cable in 2007. Why, look here... you can get a FULL FRAME scarlet shooting 6K at REDCODE 42 at that price with all the fixins. Who says that things have gotten more expensive?

And finally, some problem that might remain from the DSMC concept: It’s a lot of money for not a lot of resolution, comparatively speaking.

Here I agree with you. I'm not sure how the RED concept is going to play in the stills market. Something about an electronic shutter comes to mind, though I'm certainly no technical engineer. Conversely, the video samples that the new Canon and Nikon cameras produce is really poor. I'm of the mindset that I don't need one camera to do both jobs... can a RED reproduce the ease of use, instant on-time, and small form factor of my 5D? I guess we'll see. But being able to shoot these amazing images at 24p and beyond is what matters to me - and my guess is, that holds true for most of their target audience as well.

For instance, let’s analyze each brain in their selection, and see what advantages they are bringing to the table:

Scarlet 2/3” - Interchangeable

And then comes the interchangeable 2/3” Scarlet, that should sell for people who want to use their HD glass. I’m sorry but I don’t see quite a lot of users here.

I disagree completely, and I think this camera is going to become one of their best-selling cameras. Why? Well, the price-point for one. You have a point about the lenses, but that won't override the fact that new users who want a professional product and can't afford the biggest and the best are going to be pleased as punch over a 3K offering that can shoot up to 120fps for under three grand. Let's remember that this camera will offer equivalent DOF (and arguably better image quality) than the Varicams and F900s of yesterday. Those cameras were more than good enough for the slew of professionals who shot with them, and those cameras cost upwards of $100K! Interchangeable lenses are a big deal to filmmakers of any level. Also, it should be noted that this camera can use a B4 mount, so you aren't locked into the "mini-RED" set of lenses. Rent a digiprime to slap on your scarlet and you're in really good shape. Then, when you're ready to upgrade, you just need to switch out the brain. No, me thinks this one is going to sell like hotcakes.

Scarlet S35 - Mysterium

So, I guess this should be the new RED, but it can’t shoot hi-speed.

I wouldn't make that assumption. Based on their chart, the "max fps" that the RED ONE can shoot is 30 and we know that isn't the case. But they are very smart to list the cameras in this way, because if they list it as 120fps, people will assume you can get that out of the highest frame rate the camera can produce and a lot of misinformation will be spread. Now I don't know for sure any more than you do, but I highly, highly doubt that they won't include the sensor crop trick we get from the current RED ONE to get higher fps out of these cameras at lower resolutions. It's really not a bad compromise, especially when you buy a brain that has more resolution than you really need to begin with...

Also note that if you consider this the new "RED," the price of the body has just dropped by ten thousand dollars. If that doesn't make you smile...

Scarlet FF35 - Monstro

Now things start to get really complicated. This 12.000 Dollar brain is Full Frame. Why? Is this designed for still shooters who despise S35 format?

I think the answer is two-fold. Again, I don't think it's really "designed" for still shooters at all... we're just able to get great stills from these things, so why not market them as such? No, the answer is that a) you can now use the full circle of coverage from your still glass which is readily available and inexpensive, and b) we have finally broken that s35 size barrier which is so crucial for higher image quality.

Think of it this way... if you need to shoot a photograph for a website that will ultimately be displayed at a size equivalent to 1MP, would you rather shoot that with a 1MP camera or an 8MP camera and then oversample it? You'd oversample it, of course. Bigger imagers with larger photosites mean better dynamic range, more detail, and the advantage of reduced noise through oversampling. So a 6K camera with a FF35 imager is going to give you a better final image (1080 or 2K or whatever your flavor of choice) than yesterday's 4K s35 imager, all other things being equal. And that's why I think that this camera - at $12,500 - is really the HUGE breakthrough in the entire lineup.

Then we get to the EPIC, Higher resolution, Hi-Speed capable, higher priced. Still the same dillema: FF35 or Super 35.

Actually, the only real benefit I see here is the fps as you can get that same S35 or FF35 sensor in the Scarlet. That being said, high frame rates at full resolution is going to be a necessity for those shooters who can afford it. I don't think there's really a "dilemma" between S35 and FF35; it just depends on your situation. The better choice is clearly FF35 - but that assumes you don't have a garage full of s35-sized PL-mount lenses in your possession. The industry isn't going to change overnight; a lot of people are going to be more comfortable with what's more compatible and more familiar. Those who want better image quality and can afford to invest in larger lenses will handily choose the FF35 option.

And finally the huge medium format cameras that will certainly have it’s specific applications, but that won’t sell by the thousands. They seem great, but most will not have enough money for them.

They're definitely aimed at a smaller niche, but it should be noted again that even the insane 617 camera with its 28K sensor sells for less than an F-900. It won't sell by the thousands, but it will definitely see its share of use. What does the s35-sized F35 sell for these days? $250,000?

What do you guys think?

Please don't take offense to any of these points; I'm not singling you out. I just saw your post and thought there were good areas to respond to. Anyway, that's what I think.

 

[DaveT]

Imperial!?!?

 

[Häakon]

Love it. But confused. For example, let's say I want a 5K Epic, does that mean the upgrade path to a Monstro sensor isn't possible?? And if I get the 6K Epic, does that mean I can't use PL mount lenses? See what I mean? I thought EVERYTHING was interchangeable.

To get a Monstro sensor, you'd just replace the "brain" and keep all of your other parts. That's the whole purpose of the modular concept. Essentially, the "brain" is really just the sensor of choice and the processing power at which you can get max fps from that sensor. Everything else is built around this brain, which means you only have to upgrade this one piece if you want more resolution.

As far as PL-mount lenses on a 6K Epic, it would be like putting a digiprime on the RED ONE. s35 lenses (aka PL mount) cover a smaller area than a FF35 sensor, so you wouldn't see the whole picture. And if you're only going to see 5K worth of the image, there isn't a point in buying a 6K sensor.

This is the one part of breaking through the s35 barrier that some people are going to have a problem with. If you have a lot of old lenses that only cover a certain sensor area, they aren't going to be applicable to every camera that comes out from this point on. But there's no other way to move past that limitation than to just move past it. I think this is one of the best moves RED has made with this announcement.

 

[Häakon]

I'd bet the difference between 30 FPS and 100 FPS is just a software thing...

No, it's a processing thing. That's why the "Epic" brains are larger. It takes quite a bit more horsepower to record and compress 100 several-megapixel images 100 times every second than it does to do it 30. If you want a better CPU (and thus more fps), you pay for it. It isn't a "software unlock."

And I bet if you crack the case on the S35 brains you'd find the bigger FF35 sensor in there ... only $23K to use it though!

Not a chance. Smaller slices of a sensor are cheaper because there are far less rejection rates per area. That's why it's clear that all of the Monstro-based cameras use extractions of the same wafer (because all of the sensor properties are identical: pixel-size, dynamic range, etc.). You just get a bigger piece of the sensor (and hence, more pixels) when you pay more.

Their systems and pricing makes perfect sense.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Just as I suspected, the big boys have announced their response to RED. Lo and behold: Canon's Scarlet Killer.

That's too funny Daniel

 

[Chris Kenny]

I really love the modular concept here. Red is definitely headed in the right direction in that respect. As for the large number of "brain" options, I was initially concerned, but having thought it through, I think I might have figured it out.

I'll leave the large-format cameras out of this for the moment, since they're clearly specialty devices, and aren't even expected until 2010 (and Red tends to be a bit optimistic about ship dates).

That still leaves six other "brains". Logistically, for Red, this might not be quite as bad as it initially looks. I would guess there are only three sensors for the six cameras, and equivalent Epic and Scarlet models have the same sensors. That is, the S35 Epic probably has the same sensor as the S35 Scarlet. On top of this, you'd then have two different electronics packages, one of which can process over three times as many frames a second.

This does make the pricing structure seem rather strange, at first glance. It's a little hard to see spending over $20,000 more just for electronics that can process frames faster.

Red doesn't strike me as the sort of company that sets up completely artificial pricing tiers like this, so this got me thinking about just what might be going on here, and I think I've got a plausible answer. Mind you, I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing image sensors. But I am a bit familiar with how the CPU market works.

You'll often see CPU vendors like Intel offering the same chip at 10 different clock speeds (GHz ratings). The reason this happens is because the manufacturing process is inconsistent, particularly for the latest and greatest chips. After each chip is made, it gets tested at higher and higher speeds until it becomes unstable. Once that happens, it gets marked at its highest stable speed, and sold as a chip with that specification. Its price reflects what fraction of chips rolling off the line are capable of reaching that speed.

What I'm getting at here is, Intel doesn't set out to make the chip at many different clock speeds, but that's what happens, and they have to offer products based around that natural variability.

If the same thing is true of image sensors, it could explain both the large price difference between equivalent Scarlet and Epic models, and the reason why Red offers so many models to begin with. If only one in ten chips from the factory can operate at 100 frames per second, Red would be nuts to throw out all the other nine -- maybe 8 of them can still operate at 30 frames per second, so why not build a camera around that spec? That's the Scarlet. At the same time, if you have that one chip in ten, why stick it in a camera that only operates at 30 frames/sec when you can use it as the basis for a lower volume but higher margin product? That's the Epic.

Now, take into account that Red wanted to offer both S35 (for traditional cinema-style shooting) and FF35 (for people from the stills world), as well as 2/3" cameras for the low-budget market, and you end up with five or six models as the minimum. But if my speculation above is correct, rather than being a liability, having two versions of the camera for each format is practically a necessity.

(Once again, I have no idea if any of this actually applies to image sensors, etc. etc.)