13th responses here...

[Jason Ing]

While today’s announcements certainly did their part and blew my mind away, there were still some topics that still concern me. I’m not saying I’m unhappy with the offerings, or that they fell short of my expectations. On contrary, they certainly exceeded it. Maybe multiplied them by 6,5.

One of the things that still doesn’t make sense to me is that they offered us too much choice. Maybe, in the heat of the moment, they just opened the hatch and said, let’s give 'em all. That makes me worried that once they realize they over did it, they might just go back in the “subject to change” small type and kill a few of those parts, just like they did with some bizarre REDONE accessories.

Another concern is that, by making it modular, how much more expensive it all has gotten? A Scarlet, that should give us 3K for less than 3K costs 2500 without a lens. Since a CF module should cost around 500 bucks, it’s now 3000 without lens and LCD. How much more are we talking about to add batteries, lenses, recording options, and I/O?

And finally, some problem that might remain from the DSMC concept: It’s a lot of money for not a lot of resolution, comparatively speaking. If I want to shoot stills with a RED, I’ll have to pay “at least” 2500 dollars for a 5 MP camera. By the way, it doesn’t work with my still lenses because it’s 2/3”. Great video, specs, but not so stellar for still capture...

For instance, let’s analyze each brain in their selection, and see what advantages they are bringing to the table:

Scarlet 2/3” - Fixed Lens

Certainly their price TBD, and the price of accessories is the final piece for the puzzle. Is it still the original Scarlet? could it be 3K for less than 3K for a workable package? judging from the other brains, I don’t think so. Still, this makes a lot of sense to me. A great image in a compact lightweight and almost “plug and play” package, for an enormous cost-benefit product. Something that exceeds any prosumer equipment twice as expensive. 120 FPS is great, and perhaps, is something that makes real sense for a camera that’s designed to be a perfect crash cam!

Scarlet 2/3” - Interchangeable

And then comes the interchangeable 2/3” Scarlet, that should sell for people who want to use their HD glass. I’m sorry but I don’t see quite a lot of users here. But even if there are tons, there is something I HONESTLY don’t get: Who will buy 2/3” Primes on mini red mount? Do we really think there will be a lot of users shelling dollars for prime lenses that does not work for any other camera in order to shoot glorious 3K on 2/3”? Wouldn’t that block the whole upgrade path of just dumping the 2/3” and going to S35? Wouldn’t a prime lens set investment make a 2/3” Scarlet close the (steep) gap to the S35 version? I believe these lenses will not see the light of the day, as soon as they realize nobody will actually have any use for them.

Scarlet S35 - Mysterium

So, I guess this should be the new RED, but it can’t shoot hi-speed. S35, 11 Stops, RED (AF), PL, Nikon and Canon Mounts. Again, it’s a little expensive for a still camera (are we sure they are going to sell plenty of AF lenses?), but at least it shoots 10 Megapixels. Almost as good as a 1000 Dollar Nikon. If it is cheaper to have a 2/3” Camera for video and a Nikon D90 in the same bag, maybe not many people are going to jump into this whole DSMC concept. Anyway, it’s a slightly different RED, for a lot less money. I guess they hit the Jackpot here. 7K for a brain, would probably make for a 12-15K shooting package with certain ease. Much cheaper than buying a RED ONE body for 17,500. and making it a real useable package for 30K.

Scarlet FF35 - Monstro

Now things start to get really complicated. This 12.000 Dollar brain is Full Frame. Why? Is this designed for still shooters who despise S35 format? If feels kind of abnormal to me, that a camera that isn’t optimized for motion work (with a small selection of lenses that were actually made for that, in a proprietary mount, RED-Mount), is also way too expensive for a 10MP still camera. Sure, it’s 6K resolution, but isn’t 5 enough, since every cinema in town is not going to be more than 4K? Makes me wonder.

Epic S35 - Mysterium
Epic FF35 - Monstro

Then we get to the EPIC, Higher resolution, Hi-Speed capable, higher priced. Still the same dillema: FF35 or Super 35.

Epic Medium Format
Epic Large Format

And finally the huge medium format cameras that will certainly have it’s specific applications, but that won’t sell by the thousands. They seem great, but most will not have enough money for them.

What would make a little more sense to me would be this:

-Original Scarlet - 2/3” Fixed lens.
-Super 35 Scalet - Mysterium (Maybe for a little less than 7000, maybe 6000?)
-Super 35 Epic - Monstro (35000)
-Medium Format Epic - Monstro
-Large Format Epic - Monstro

What do you guys think?

Well...

..."too much choice". That's sort of seeing from only your eyes and needs. What about the thousands of others? Do you think what they need exactly matches your needs? Choices is good. For "everyone".

..."modular". Yeah, ala carte can increase costs and for some companies it's just another way to rip off their customers. But... it's also a way for customers to save money as well. Broke? Just replace that part. Irrelevant to your needs? Don't buy that part. Upgraded? Just replace that part.

I'll let the others talk about how each brain fits what they need. For me, I'm thinking Red One is great, but if I had the money, then the Epic FF35 or better.

 

[Luis Otero]

Somehow I am feeling that Red One will be a second class citizen among the Red family of cameras. I cannot see, aside of Misterium X, how they will deliver the offered of upgrade via modularity if you do not get on board with Scarlet/Epic. And they will only do the $17.5K trade in with Epic, not with Scarlet... We are not even getting the promised latitude...

Am I alone on this weird feeling that I have just been abandoned?:wacko:

 

[captainscarlet]

Scarlet 2/3” - Interchangeable

And then comes the interchangeable 2/3” Scarlet, that should sell for people who want to use their HD glass. I’m sorry but I don’t see quite a lot of users here. But even if there are tons, there is something I HONESTLY don’t get: Who will buy 2/3” Primes on mini red mount? Do we really think there will be a lot of users shelling dollars for prime lenses that does not work for any other camera in order to shoot glorious 3K on 2/3”? Wouldn’t that block the whole upgrade path of just dumping the 2/3” and going to S35? Wouldn’t a prime lens set investment make a 2/3” Scarlet close the (steep) gap to the S35 version? I believe these lenses will not see the light of the day, as soon as they realize nobody will actually have any use for them.

Until now, I didn’t see any way I could justify a Red or Scarlet for “run & gun” ENG/EFP work (95% of what I do & there is a HUGE ENG/EFP market out there).

Now with the 2/3 interchangeable version of Scarlet, I have the option of slapping on a wide variety of 2/3 HD-ENG glass giving me just about everything I need:

Master pristine footage in 3K for delivery @ 1080
Increased dynamic range
An almost future proof camera system

GREAT job Red!!


My only real concern is audio. I’m hoping the BoB has manual knobs & an audio meter on the left side for easy adjustment while shooting.

(I do agree on your point about the primes; I wish Red made an ENG lens instead)

 

[Zach Nelson]

I, too, am confused by the price points vs. features .. it's like the price points jump disproportionately to the features you get ... considering the resolution and FPS are probably unlocked via software and the different lens mounts are a $350 item - the thousands of additional dollars just seems too much.

I really don't think it makes sense to have 8 different pieces of silicon in development - especially when you can have 2-3 ... and if you look at the sensor names (Mysterium-X, Monstro, etc) it would seem that indeed there are only those 2 (plus original Mysterium, makes 3).

So if that's the case, then why would a 6K Monstro in a FF35 Scarlet cost $12K and feature 30 FPS while the same 6K Monstro is in the FF35 Epic featuring 100 FPS and the Epic version costs $23K more? I'd bet the difference between 30 FPS and 100 FPS is just a software thing - so $23K for a software unlock???

Same thing goes for the S35 Scarlet and S35 Epic .. 30 FPS vs. 100 FPS and $23K cost for the unlock. That's the beauty of software - unlockable features - but $23K seems pretty steep!

Now I believe the 645 - the higher res means lower FPS and I get the $10K up-charge - but I'm not buying into the S35 and FF35 upgrades, it's too much $.

And I bet if you crack the case on the S35 brains you'd find the bigger FF35 sensor in there ... only $23K to use it though!

But hey what do I know?

 

[killfilm]

Yah, with that many excellent image options, i do hope audio didnt take a back seat...24bit/48khz i hope with quiet preamps.

 

[tfg]

It seems like the best solution would be a Scarlet with a 2/3" lens mount. Then buy yourself a letus 35mm adapter (you KNOW they will come up with something nice for this camera). In general this will let you achieve 35mm DOF without having to buy the 35mm Scarlet (which is more than twice as much)...and you still get the 120fps option. Yes... it only shoots 3K ... but 3K is more than enough.

 

[Zach Nelson]

It seems like the best solution would be a Scarlet with a 2/3" lens mount. Then buy yourself a letus 35mm adapter (you KNOW they will come up with something nice for this camera). In general this will let you achieve 35mm DOF without having to buy the 35mm Scarlet (which is TWICE as much)...and you still get the 120fps option. Yes... it only shoots 3K ... but 3K is more than enough.

I agree... totally.

.. well by the time you add $5000 for the Letus you're at the Scarlet S35 anyway - Letus is too expensive!

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

buy hasselblad lenses now

 

[killfilm]

the letus sounds like a good idea. So how much is it gonna add up to. Scarlet body is approx. $2500, add your batteries, recording media, IO options, BOB, then the letus which is $1100. Im guessing about $6000?

 

[Zach Nelson]

I'd say the Letus is $5000 considering the Ultimate is $4500 and Scarlet will be considered a premium I bet!

http://www.letusdirect.com/cart/letus35-ultimate.html

 

[tfg]

I agree... totally.

.. well by the time you add $5000 for the Letus you're at the Scarlet S35 anyway - Letus is too expensive!

Well, the Letus Extreme is $1,199 -- that's moreso along the lines of what I was thinking. According to their chart, the extreme can fit on all the same lenses as the ultimate ... so my guess is that both are viable.

 

[Zach Nelson]

well we have at least 6-9 months to worry about all of this ... time to hit the snooze bar, wake me up in 2009 :watsup:

 

[Mark Andersen]

Hasselblad C lenses

Hasselblad C lenses

buy hasselblad lenses now

I'd love top see a hasselblad mount on Epic. Does anyone see this as possible?

 

[10s]

I wonder what would be the results of putting a Nikon mount on the 120fps Scarlet? anyone....?

 

[killfilm]

well we have at least 6-9 months to worry about all of this ... time to hit the snooze bar, wake me up in 2009 :watsup:

You reminded me of getting back to work editing and shooting on my HVX200A until that time comes. I almost sold my panny thinking Scarlet would be available soon! that was close.

 

[tfg]

the letus sounds like a good idea. So how much is it gonna add up to. Scarlet body is approx. $2500, add your batteries, recording media, IO options, BOB, then the letus which is $1100. Im guessing about $6000?

Something along those lines is what I'm thinking ... If this happens to come true it would prove to be an excellent compromise (that will no doubt have its own unique challenges) to let the entry level consumers get a feel of working with 35mm lenses.

 

[Ronald Reddick]

I do not know about what the other Doc and ENG shooters are thinking. But my take is my order with B&H to replace our older Sony gear is on hold. I had just ordered a Red One for my own work, but instead of replacing the Eng gear with the new Sony 4:4:4 700 I think I will wait for the Scarlet 2/3 in which we can reuse our glass and give the teams a better camera. I think these cameras "Scarlet and Epic" can be a serious disrupter the the ENG world!

Also at the price point (A kitted out Sony 700 is close to $60K) I could even give my guys 5K to shoot in HD with new glass. RED - Give me some ENG type Zooms for the FF35 and I would be so happy I will order 5 today!

Last, as I still shoot alot of stuff on my old RZ Pro II film at 6x7 I would love to see a mount for the Mimaya lenses which are some fantastic glass. And for me this glass on an Epic would truly be amazing, for both motion and still work!! Never mind the Auto Focus, I am a manual guy.

PS - I bet I could get some new shooters to come to Kabul if they got to shoot on Red Scarlet's doing news and Docs

Ron

 

[Alexander R. Taylor]

I wonder what would be the results of putting a Nikon mount on the 120fps Scarlet? anyone....?

This is what I'm looking for post-announcement - a 2/3" 3k Scarlet with a Nikon mount. This would give me compatibility with my existing gear, and give me a clear upgrade path as my business grows, but without breaking the bank for me!

Alexander

 

[conrad gaunt]

Great looking new products, well done.. but I'm obscelete, have codec errors and Redcine is still so nearly useful, half the time. Just uncovered another good'en in some test footage a client has shot. I'll just delete that R3D and hope he doesn't notice eh, or be ethical.. thanks for forgetting the brain upgrade in the Red one, so much for moving with technology.. If you'd put as much thought into the future of your early adopters as you did viral marketing we'd all be better off.. great images intermixed with unuseable ones, as one client put it "reminds me of the early days of digi-beta". Send me a camera that works reliably and I'll be happy, because $17,500+accessories is a lot of money for a camera that still isn't, or a brain upgrade!

 

[Cail Young]

Cool.

Now give me a triax(-like) CCU module.