$101,800.00 for basic 8K package

[Kemalettin Sert]

Much have been said on RED vs ARRI. I just say, keep your eye on Black Magic. They are evolving fast.

i remember this one 2 years ago Red and Arri supposed to be dead in that times too.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Much have been said on RED vs ARRI. I just say, keep your eye on Black Magic. They are evolving fast.

Yeah, they are moving so fast they loose frames, stability and requirements to safety be able to bring a production to the finish line.
I like the innovation and spirit of BM, but if I need to put my money on some tech that will be the base for my feature film, I wouldn't go with BM. Being able to do high tech stuff isn't the same as being able to deliver it 99% of the time. I don't pay for Red just because of the quality, but for the quality and stability. People complain about Red's stability, but the only productions I've done with the level of stability needed for a whole feature film is either Arri Alexa or Red Epic.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Yeah, they are moving so fast they loose frames, stability and requirements to safety be able to bring a production to the finish line.
I like the innovation and spirit of BM, but if I need to put my money on some tech that will be the base for my feature film, I wouldn't go with BM. Being able to do high tech stuff isn't the same as being able to deliver it 99% of the time. I don't pay for Red just because of the quality, but for the quality and stability. People complain about Red's stability, but the only productions I've done with the level of stability needed for a whole feature film is either Arri Alexa or Red Epic.

That and no OLPF on BM means all my actors' skin looks 10 years older just because of the camera choice, and no, you can't really fix that in post, and no the 3rd party OLPF does not really work (it looks like a 35mm adapter with strange, oily bokeh) . No backfocus adjustment either. BM makes great prosumer cams, but that's all they are. Their cameras are by no means among the best, and to use them on a high budget shoot is extremely foolish except as crash cams.

The serious, safe choices come from Red, Arri and Sony. Period. Use a weirdo camera brand and if anything goes wrong it's your fault. Use Red Arri or a high end Sony model, and if anything goes wrong it's just "what happens sometimes" and no one says anything as you reboot.

 

[dino g]

Regarding the prices of the top of the line red offering, red is now just like any other company that produces a high end, highly engineered product. there are the inexpensive product offerings, the medium priced offerings and the high-end top of the line offerings. every car company has such a line up, all the camera companies do for both stills and motion. gun companies, hockey skate companies, hockey sticks, baseball bats, shoes...you name it. there is a top of the line best that can be had and then there are alternatives that do slightly less as you go down the line. why is that so difficult to comprehend? if you can rent your red one with the M sensor...rent it, got the MX Red one and some customers that think that is alright...own it and rent it. 8k may not be for the 20k music video of the brand new artist...but you can bet that probst is using it for lady gaga in a few months and fincher is using it on his next feature or commercial. those are top of the line guys and they want and can afford top of the line kit. they have top of the line cars and houses and clothes...it is just how it is. so weapon 8k represents a kind of grown up phase for red in my opinion. the camera is not inexpensive. i just dropped $9500 to get my epic m #00087 upgraded to dragon in time for NAB and then had to throw down another 30700 for the two dragons to be in line to go weapon 8k. thats over 40k in two weeks...i spent 40k total to get the red one #0031 and the epic x #00031...and that was over 5 years and those cameras made us money for 7+ years...so i get the frustration. but brent said something to me at NAB that put it all in perspective.

he said, if 10,000 people say they are going to upgrade and then only 2500 actually put up the money and do it, then they are stuck with 7500 x the number of parts it takes to upgrade these cameras....thats a lot of coin. so this way weeds out the tire kickers...and quite frankly that is ok with me. i got a call yesterday to send a dragon to the east coast for a shoot that needed a dragon desperately, it was for a national car spot of the biggest car manufacturer in the world. they needed me to get the camera to fedex in 45 minutes...and the rate was 500 per day including 4 x 256 media....of course i told them NO and this is the kind of jokers that are out there degrading the kit that we have by falling into productions trap...

I'm down with the indie spirit, but lets all realize what we have and were this is going. if you can't handle weapon 8k prices, which are btw much cheaper than the alternatives, which there really are not any, then it is ok, go with the lower price model and aspire to have the top of the line someday...it is ok.

if you get the 8k, hold firm on the rental rates, try not to get suckered into giving it away just because you could not afford it in the first place because you are doing everyone a dis-service by devaluing our investments. productions job is to get everything for nothing. camera owner your job is to get the most amount of money for your gear each and every job. you take a break one day and give it away, word spreads....and finally, if you need a camera somewhere in the world last minute, don't try and negotiate for production, let them do their job...your camera went down or did not come as planned from red...its on them to find one and they know their budget, they have been working on the job for weeks and months...there is much more at stake for them than you can actual imagine....unless you were ever in their shoes as a producer of multi-million dollar commercials. you do not expect them to know the difference between skin tone OLPF and Low Light OLPF, then why are you negotiating replacement cameras...ok rant over.

 

[Mike Nagel]

he said, if 10,000 people say they are going to upgrade and then only 2500 actually put up the money and do it, then they are stuck with 7500 x the number of parts it takes to upgrade these cameras....thats a lot of coin. so this way weeds out the tire kickers...and quite frankly that is ok with me.

man, if that is a direct quote, that is poor business sense IMO...

first off, if the upgrade price was what "it used to be" around 50% of what they now charge for Weapon, way more people would have upgraded, in his example at least double that, so "20,000"... now, again - as per his example - 75% flake out, u still now got 5,000 on Weapon instead of 2,500... so since u chopped the upgrade price in half but now u had double the units upgraded u end up (roughly) with same gross in (I know there are other costs as well)... but now u have 5,000 dudes who all need new Weapon AKS.... $$$$$$$$.... that is where they make money (they release one brain every 3-5 years but [enter your random number here] amount of AKS in a steady pace)... and those are 5,000 peeps who may then consider doing 8K after all... so more money.

in addition, with upgrade price of US$19,000 for Dragon-X - believe this - people will be way less forgiving if the "usual" upgrade madness happens: bad hw, non-working features, bad fw etc etc... look at R1 release, look at Epic upgrade, look at Dragon upgrade...

before it was such a win-win deal for both sides that sure some peeps complained but the majority sucked it up as the upgrade path was a very, very nice gift from RED. This is not the case anymore. Buy new is better now.


in any case, the real "problem" (for lack of a better word) with Weapon is, that the upgrade itself - no matter what the price is - is very, very underwhelming for many... (as an upgrade, not as a new purchase)

8K is the only interesting thing happening here for RAW shooters (which means all RED shooters).. but it is TWO upgrades away, and obviously there is no real world feedback yet (from a large set of users) and way more money to gamble with...

if RED was really concerned with the amount of people flaking out - then lock in a fixed upgrade price and have everybody pay that full price upfront. But you need to state timelines (and deliver by that) and you need to stay on that price. It's a contract - for BOTH parties.

With an attractive upgrade price, way more people would upgrade whether they need any Weapon features or not...

Another reason why some peeps cancel after they placed an order is, that they placed the initial order in "good faith" and then finally (days/weeks later) see the actual specs of the machine... or real world tests ultimately reveal the actual performance...

Just because the upgrade price is now twice as high does not mean in any shape or form, that not the same amount of peeps (--> 75%) will flake out...

 

[Phil Holland]

in any case, the real "problem" (for lack of a better word) with Weapon is, that the upgrade itself - no matter what the price is - is very, very underwhelming for many... (as an upgrade, not as a new purchase)

Just curious Mike, what is "underwhelming" about the upgrade for you in particular? Just curious and I'd imagine RED would be too.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Just curious Mike, what is "underwhelming" about the upgrade for you in particular? Just curious and I'd imagine RED would be too.

well, this is just my personal opinion:

if you look at the RED upgrades before we always got something "revolutionary" or really something that (pretty much) gave u a new cam...

R1 -> R1 MX... the MX sensor

R1/MX -> Epic.... the form factor.

Epic -> Dragon... deluxe image.

what is the main feature with Weapon ? Prores.

Who - in the world of RED shooters - gives a flying crap about Prores ? If that was done 8 years ago when peeps did not have the workstations they had today. Okay. But now, after 8 years of educating folks (and "enforcing") that the RAW workflow is a beauty and is absolutely doable, we get Prores as the main feature.

I don't mind it, but I do not need it. I can encode anything on my machines in no time.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for all the peeps who rent their RED cam (shame on you loaning your baby to strangers, hehe) they've been asking for Prores for a while and now they have it. That is cool - for these minor percentages.

All other W features are small workflow improvements - most of them aren't an improvement at all for most indie shooters... The reduced body weight of 1-2 lbs does not matter for 99% of shooters. LUTs yeah, I'm a LUT slut but that is not worth the upgrade price - especially if the folks do not use perfectly calibrated screens on set - and when I see what some post here... oh boy ... and on fast paced shoots, there is no time for LUTs. 99% it doesn't matter, final color always dominates anyways - using fully accurately calibrated equipment in the color suite.

No 96Khz audio board... drives a dagger in my heart. R1 had it. Loved it. I know we got wireless TC now, again not often a reality with indie shoots. Audio straight into camera is a reality for A LOT of locked off shots. And saves me LOTS of time in post syncing from external recorder. That saved time and hustle is worth money to me.

So for me as a RED RAW shooter, this upgrade has barely anything. For sure nothing worth 19K. There was a thread here "weapon wish"... so many cool feature requests. I'll keep the 19K and keep shooting on Dragon and just buy a Canon body instead and have a very nice crash cam. ;-) And I still shoot Dragon... ;-)

I was personally hoping to either "be surprised" (well, technically speaking they achieved that) or that they finally released an Epic like body (which W basically is), with core basic buttons and functionality all integrated - on the body. Like any other camera on the planet has it. They went even further away from that.

Get this: u buy a used W brain in the future. U cannot even power up the cam b/c there is no DC in. So u can't confirm ur purchase working or not. So u get a used W module to power up ur W brain. It's not working. What is it now ? a broken brain ? A broken module ?

You need to be able to fire up the camera and do a system check without a module.

same scenario: u're on set... what is it ? broken brain ? broken module ? I know, I know... the old saying goes: buy TWO of everything... ;-))))

And what for ? what is the percentage of peeps that need to shape off ounces and ounces and get their rig as light as possible ? Very low compared to all the peeps that shoot 80+% locked off shots... u know like TV and movies.... scripted content. And peeps say that is what RED is trying to get into with this cam...

Modularity galore clusterf*ck... and believe me, if u'd know my bg, modularity is my bread and butter but I would like a standalone basic functional body.

8K is the only feature that trumps Prores in the announcement - but that is a double upgrade for premium coin. There should have been one W upgrade. And that is straight to W 8K - for half that price. Does not matter what they say about the hw costs... they will be further down in a year and more peeps would order straight away... larger batches, reduced costs for everybody... more feedback... improved assembly lines that stay busy... more AKS sales... blablabla

Another thing I was betting on was improved color science... the half-stop improvement I'm not sure about whether u're actually gonna see that (that often)... the CMOS smear and pink orbs... hell yeah, but tbh - same sensor - this should be fixed on Dragon anyways... and there is a way to do it. And these "problems" fortunately do not occur that often so we have the same image as Dragon-X... (unless they are other improvements I am not aware of ?)

I'm not ranting on RED - I think they're pretty cool... but RED is a business and we are shooters. The W upgrade pricing is completely off while the buy new price is really fair. I think they're not doing themselves a favor, but that's just my opinion. There is a compromise where they can make (even more) money and way more peeps stay happy peachy on the RED train...

Here's an idea: have a RED Weapon upgrade Group Buy. Goal is, if X amount of folks commit (by paying full upgrade price up-front) then the final upgrade price is US$[enter your loyal customer friendly RED train chu-chu amount here].... ;-)

Another funny annecdote about this W upgrade is, that on other sites, peeps always run their mouth how reduser is just full of fanboys and fanboys and blablabla... all BS. They're just jealous b/c reduser has some really cool folks. ;-) there were a lot of folks here that publicly voiced that they were disappointed in the W upgrade - so no fanboy behavior at all - yet that does not make them love RED a bit less. It's a great feedback portal.

Phil, let me ask you - and be honest, I promise I won't tell anybody :yesnod:: do u get an automatic 50% off when u place ur order on red.com ?

If not, then let me be the first one to tell you you'd deserve it... you're spending a lot of (valuable) time providing very detailed feedback on all things RED. Much appreciated.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

well, this is just my personal opinion:

if you look at the RED upgrades before we always got something "revolutionary" or really something that (pretty much) gave u a new cam...

R1 -> R1 MX... the MX sensor

R1/MX -> Epic.... the form factor.

Epic -> Dragon... deluxe image.

what is the main feature with Weapon ? Prores.

Who - in the world of RED shooters - gives a flying crap about Prores ? If that was done 8 years ago when peeps did not have the workstations they had today. Okay. But now, after 8 years of educating folks (and "enforcing") that the RAW workflow is a beauty and is absolutely doable, we get Prores as the main feature.

I don't mind it, but I do not need it. I can encode anything on my machines in no time.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy for all the peeps who rent their RED cam (shame on you loaning your baby to strangers, hehe) they've been asking for Prores for a while and now they have it. That is cool - for these minor percentages.

All other W features are small workflow improvements - most of them aren't an improvement at all for most indie shooters... The reduced body weight of 1-2 lbs does not matter for 99% of shooters. LUTs yeah, I'm a LUT slut but that is not worth the upgrade price - especially if the folks do not use perfectly calibrated screens on set - and when I see what some post here... oh boy ... and on fast paced shoots, there is no time for LUTs. 99% it doesn't matter, final color always dominates anyways - using fully accurately calibrated equipment in the color suite.

No 96Khz audio board... drives a dagger in my heart. R1 had it. Loved it. I know we got wireless TC now, again not often a reality with indie shoots. Audio straight into camera is a reality for A LOT of locked off shots. And saves me LOTS of time in post syncing from external recorder. That saved time and hustle is worth money to me.

So for me as a RED RAW shooter, this upgrade has barely anything. For sure nothing worth 19K. There was a thread here "weapon wish"... so many cool feature requests. I'll keep the 19K and keep shooting on Dragon and just buy a Canon body instead and have a very nice crash cam. ;-) And I still shoot Dragon... ;-)

I was personally hoping to either "be surprised" (well, technically speaking they achieved that) or that they finally released an Epic like body (which W basically is), with core basic buttons and functionality all integrated - on the body. Like any other camera on the planet has it. They went even further away from that.

Get this: u buy a used W brain in the future. U cannot even power up the cam b/c there is no DC in. So u can't confirm ur purchase working or not. So u get a used W module to power up ur W brain. It's not working. What is it now ? a broken brain ? A broken module ?

You need to be able to fire up the camera and do a system check without a module.

same scenario: u're on set... what is it ? broken brain ? broken module ? I know, I know... the old saying goes: buy TWO of everything... ;-))))

And what for ? what is the percentage of peeps that need to shape off ounces and ounces and get their rig as light as possible ? Very low compared to all the peeps that shoot 80+% locked off shots... u know like TV and movies.... scripted content. And peeps say that is what RED is trying to get into with this cam...

Modularity galore clusterf*ck... and believe me, if u'd know my bg, modularity is my bread and butter but I would like a standalone basic functional body.

8K is the only feature that trumps Prores in the announcement - but that is a double upgrade for premium coin. There should have been one W upgrade. And that is straight to W 8K - for half that price. Does not matter what they say about the hw costs... they will be further down in a year and more peeps would order straight away... larger batches, reduced costs for everybody... more feedback... improved assembly lines that stay busy... more AKS sales... blablabla

Another thing I was betting on was improved color science... the half-stop improvement I'm not sure about whether u're actually gonna see that (that often)... the CMOS smear and pink orbs... hell yeah, but tbh - same sensor - this should be fixed on Dragon anyways... and there is a way to do it. And these "problems" fortunately do not occur that often so we have the same image as Dragon-X... (unless they are other improvements I am not aware of ?)

I'm not ranting on RED - I think they're pretty cool... but RED is a business and we are shooters. The W upgrade pricing is completely off while the buy new price is really fair. I think they're not doing themselves a favor, but that's just my opinion. There is a compromise where they can make (even more) money and way more peeps stay happy peachy on the RED train...

Here's an idea: have a RED Weapon upgrade Group Buy. Goal is, if X amount of folks commit (by paying full upgrade price up-front) then the final upgrade price is US$[enter your loyal customer friendly RED train chu-chu amount here].... ;-)

Another funny annecdote about this W upgrade is, that on other sites, peeps always run their mouth how reduser is just full of fanboys and fanboys and blablabla... all BS. They're just jealous b/c reduser has some really cool folks. ;-) there were a lot of folks here that publicly voiced that they were disappointed in the W upgrade - so no fanboy behavior at all - yet that does not make them love RED a bit less. It's a great feedback portal.

Phil, let me ask you - and be honest, I promise I won't tell anybody :yesnod:: do u get an automatic 50% off when u place ur order on red.com ?

If not, then let me be the first one to tell you you'd deserve it... you're spending a lot of (valuable) time providing very detailed feedback on all things RED. Much appreciated.

he gets %100 off on every order.Are you happy now?

 

[Mike Nagel]

he gets %100 off on every order.Are you happy now?

sure, as I stated in my post: he deserves it.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

sure, as I stated in my post: he deserves it.

Yeah thats like attack someone personally then say he is super awesome.Whats that has to do with Red prices? Btw im not gonna upgrade carbon woven package in future but i dont come here screamin yellin how the fuck CF prices too much for me?
Red never promised they are gonna get cheaper
Red never promised they ll upgrade every camera
Red never promised your camera will be same worth next year while you upgrading.
If you had Carbon Fiber Epic i understand if you are furious about half price lost on upgrade but all the big whiners seems like they dont even own any Red equipment.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Yeah thats like attack someone personally then say he is super awesome.Whats that has to do with Red prices? Btw im not gonna upgrade carbon woven package in future but i dont come here screamin yellin how the fuck CF prices too much for me?
Red never promised they are gonna get cheaper
Red never promised they ll upgrade every camera
Red never promised your camera will be same worth next year while you upgrading.
If you had Carbon Fiber Epic i understand if you are furious about half price lost on upgrade but all the big whiners seems like they dont even own any Red equipment.

It's called voicing your opinion. Perhaps in Turkey it's different, but in a western society it's a normal thing and that's what these forums are for. If you don't like it, just ignore it.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

I come from the “Writer/ Director” side of the filmmaker equation, from that perspective my comments are from “what I can do or not” with “one camera or the other”, but I’m most “emphatic” with my support for Red, they led the charge on everything to the point where we can now comfortably say 4K IS HERE TO STAY, in Capture, Theatrical Screening, and Television Broadcast that was no small feat. I remember when “2k is good enough”, well it wasn’t, and neither will 4K / UHD! 8K will soon be here!

To be honest, I have no idea what the Arriflex Alexa price or cost is, to buy or rent, and as I understand there are very many different models, I think I know what their “top-camera-is”, and all I know it’s BIG, pretty big, and how big “it-is”, I do know how the Arriflex 65 is, but its huge, like an “Anvil”, and God only knows how much it weights with “all of their attachments”, and there is the question of RENTAL ONLY, and there is the matter of their DTI station, I must confess I’m ignorant of all those things. I DO KNOW that “IT WILL ONLY DO 6K”, and need a lenses with a huge “Image Circles” for “all-their-world” bragging and promoting everywhere, I cannot turn a magazine article or advertisement, without seeing something about Arriflex. Can you imagine it on a 3DS steadicam, you got be strong like an Ox or an Elephant.

Don’t get me wrong, I do know something about Filmmaking, but I’m not an expert, like say Victorio Storato or someone like him, many of them after a lifetime of experience with 35 mm Film Negative, are babes in the woods when it comes to “Digital Cinema” but they DO HAVE THE EYE for what works, they now need to transfer that knowledge to the “Digital World” which is going somewhere fast. Now it’s onto 8K for many reason that have been stated here, one among many is the Broadcast by NHK of the 2016 Olympics and beyond, but that’s not the only one of the things that are happening, think of IMAX, availability of lenses, 2.1 Screening for Television as well as a 4K or 8K DCI 2.40:1 for Theatrical Screening, and many more things, once something comes out with something new, people will think of different uses for it, it’s “Human Nature”.

On the other hand, I think that for about $100,000.00 (take or give a “Few Thousand Dollars”) you could buy an entire package ready to go anywhere, and do anything, that’s of course is without any kind of lens, but they are available from Panavision to a Nikon or Canon lens (and others), and they would all work in the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Camera” even your 6K lenses, it’s truly a “Multiform-matt Camera”. Well so much for the comparison FROM MY END.

I might add, that many lens manufactures are looking into as I write these words, companies like the Hawk 65, Cooke Anamorphic, and many more, they “don’t-want-to-stay-behind” or reveal their full strategy, the writing is on the wall, who will take advantage, I don’t know, but were heading for a “full frame capture 8K territory” VERY FAST.

FIRST the 2016 Olympics for the Japanese broadcast from “Rio de Jannerio”, and SECOND ONTO “Japanese Territory”, and they have been planning this for a long time, ever since the “SMPTE Show” which was very important “way-back-then” (if I remember right it was around 1984, I could be wrong on the year). They are busy in Japan continually working on this, but Red has always has something “up-their-sleeve” and you can count on that.

I think “gone are the days” when a “Director of Photography” would say; “Well I don’t’ know anything about “Digital Cinema”, so I’ll go with Arriflex because they made a Great 35 mm Film Camera”! Well there is a new kid on the block, and is called Red 8K! Now this camera the “Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Camera” is the MOST ADVANCE “Digital Cinema” camera in the World, barred none, and the ones that follow are Sony and Arriflex, they are way behind, then there is NHK, they doing whatever they are doing, and they will do something, but they can’t compete with the current crop of “Digital Cinema Cameras”, they might advance the coming of 8K televisions, who know, I don’t. But they got to get it off the racks and onto a “small camera package” that reasonably fit on the shoulder, it reminds me of that famous “Aaton Camera” advertisement that’ that’s been around for a long time, the one with the cat on the shoulder.

Because Red manufactures their own R3D REDCODE File chip set, that has not stopped any of the other manufacturing Giants from trying to reverse engineer the “Now Famous Chip-set” at least among the engineers at many of these well known companies, “Thank God for the U. S. Patent Process”.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Phil Holland]

That's alright, I'm looking for your personal opinion. I primarily make a living shooting on RED cameras and have the weird career of working on larger budget feature films through independent productions. I'm always curious to hear "perspectives" because of the learning experience for the most part. I also talk to a lot of folks in the industry and I'm always curious to hear their wants, needs, and desires.

From my perspective Weapon's main feature is "advanced technology". Which is harder to have a slug line for, but it's apparent it's got a lot more processing power and features. If we take the price out of the equation every feature that I can see on Weapon is more a pro than a con.

I'm a REDCODE RAW shooter as well, so for the most part (especially for smaller things I produce), ProRes isn't so fascinating. However, nearly ever job I work on I do need ProRes and nearly every production has wanted it on camera or to be made extremely quickly. Also, searching around on REDuser there's legion of posts of those wanting ProRes dating years back. So if productions want it, studios want it, and those focused on "quick to air" workflows are excited about it; ProRes makes a lot of sense for certain individuals.

It's a weird thing really, because I'm all about .R3D editing. However, I have a shoot on the 8th that the client will need ProRes files by the end of the shooting day to take with them from 6K material from a full day of shooting. If I can have those made while I'm shooting in this particular case it would make me a happy camper. Instead, it costs me a DIT day rate and luckily I have my own hardware on set. I log enough shoots like this during a year where this might even pay for the upgrade itself alone.

3D LUT support is a big plus and combined with ProRes this is going to be very useful. For those who have perfectly calibrated gear on set or not, I do see potential in a variety of other ways regarding during record LUT support. Especially for episodic production. Everybody has wanted it and it's here.

I hear you on the higher quality audio. Not much to say on that front. Most in camera audio for me at 24-bit 48Khz would suffice, but I also use Zaxcom and SD field recorders. Wireless Timecode would be a god send if RED can add that. That's something we can agree on. And I think the built in WiFi provides exciting potential when it comes to camera control and who knows what else really.

On the topic of the general camera body. I disagree, but it's mostly because I see how a lot of people are using cameras today and even see "the competition" coming up with smaller cameras even. Love it or hate it the modular approach provides a much more flexible camera system. If you are in a studio all day everyday it doesn't make too much sense, but for general production use and certainly the popularity of drones, gimbals, handheld, etc.; the smaller modular approach makes a heck of a lot of sense. Man, I think of all the nature work I've shot, but we have Natural History shooters out there who would kill to have a lighter body. Cameras get heavier it seems when you're out in the wild.

I was a bit daunted by the lack of DC In on the Weapon brain itself, but the BASE EXPANDER is pretty much a "given" and on the plus side if somebody yanks real hard on an HDMI or DC line you can quickly swap the module rather than having a bricked brain. Another thing I've seen asked for here on REDuser over the years. I had an A/C yank out the LCD Lemo on one of our Dragon's in January and if I didn't have an extra body around that day with that extra Side SSD Module we'd be in the weeds big time. That location costed production a 1/4 $mil and I wasn't a happy camper. But that modular approach works. Most people I stumble across seem to agree. I get a rather small percentage of "I want a real camera" here and there or the "it's so unbalanced for shoulder work". It's incredibly simple to balance a shoulder rig with rods , so I'm way outside of that ever being a deal breaker for me.

It's a crazy thing looking back at the last few years of shooting actually. I've probably rigged my Scarlet/Epic MX and Epic Dragon 100 different ways, maybe even more. Without that flexibility that's a 100+ situations that would have sucked. The productions I work on don't want a smaller camera brought in typically, they want the same format and same workflow. So for me this whole modular thing is actually a huge benefit.

8K and this VistaVision+ sized sensor I'm crazy excited over and I don't need to get all romantic about that. It's one of my favorite formats and there is certainly a trend for higher end productions using larger formats lately. I've been getting hit up for 8K footage for a hot minute, I'm excited to explore this resolution and format. As for the cost, I know you say it doesn't matter what the "hw costs" are, but in reality it's fairly large wafer cut and the QC and yield on things like this blows. The sensor alone is a pricey concept, not to mention the internals of Weapon are essentially a brand new camera system. For a good amount of people 6K and a more S35 "swiss army knife" like Weapon 6K is going to be just what the doctor ordered. However, some of us have crazy doctors and we're looking for 8K and a big slice of sensor.

The general pricing structure makes sense for me. Though I think many were expecting something in the realm of $10-$15K total. However, that's not the market Weapon is targeted at considering it's features. I do think since RED explicitly said that all Dragons have access to "the future" all we're seeing is a new more powerful flagship camera being added into the RED Dragon line-up. Scarlet, Epic, Weapon. The next steps after here might be more sensor and/or frame rate related even and that's going to require some major horsepower at these resolutions. I'm on Epic-X and the new "retail" price of a Weapon CF (package) is $71,770. For me to upgrade it's $34,000, which is $37,770 off of that new Weapon CF package price. Which means my Epic Dragon which I upgraded from MX for $9.5K is worth a good amount of cash towards this upgrade. Plus RED is giving me $5K to spend on AKS (yep REDVOLT XLs and REDVOLT EXPANDER) and I still have a few 64GB REDMAGs here I can trade-in for credits on more MINI-MAGs (already made the switch, but certainly buying more mags). 8K upgrade is an additional $10K later this year and since this is a zero deposit discount at this point it's a no brainer for me. Depending on where folks are at with their ROI on their specific Epic and Scarlet Dragon I can see this being where some of the harder head scratching comes in. For some it makes a bit of sense to upgrade at a slightly later time if Weapon is the path they want to be on, especially if they've had the camera 1-3 months. For anybody who had a Dragon at any point in 2014 (and those who had one in 2013) I don't see this as being a daunting upgrade from a price, performance, and schedule perspective. But we're at the very beginning of the Weapon upgrade program. But for me for an 8K VistaVision+ camera for the sub $50K upgrade that's trouncing other cameras out there (we'll just say that's my opinion), it makes a heck of a lot of sense to me.

I guess what I'm saying is RED's releasing a "new camera" with Weapon, a flagship "top of the line" one at that. Fully fledged for production use with features productions have been asking for. For upgraders there's options for CF or MG and that relates to some fairly big savings as well if you don't need the extra juice the CF model provides.

Just some of the improvements to image artifacts:

Based on this post by Jarred:

Weapon isn't JUST about 8k and Vista Vision. It takes everything about the Dragon and makes it better. For example.. the things that you just commented that are an issue with you, are better on Weapon.

CMOS Smear is reduced on Weapon and those little IR orbs around lightbulbs that you get in rare occasions are dramatically reduced.

I guess a picture is worth a thousand words:

It looks like CMOS Smear, IR Reflected Orbs, and Color Science is being worked on. Right now this is the push on Weapon, but it wouldn't be surprising if some of the benefits (specifically Color Science based enhancements) come to Scarlet and Epic Dragons. Too early to tell. However, that extra 1/2 stop we're getting I'm betting is purely due to the additional processing power of Weapon. Unclear if that's the camera seeing a 1/2 stop further into shadow or if we are going to have a camera that's a 1/2 stop cleaner at equivalent ISO ratings across all tones.

Outside of this I know RED's working on Weapon hard. I'm hoping a summer 2015 release can be hit and if possible the 8K upgrade sooner even. I'm betting we'll see more improvements and features even outside of what we "know" today because we're still in the earliest days of Weapon development.

No worries on the last bit, I took that as a compliment and I appreciate it.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Yeah thats like attack someone personally then say he is super awesome.Whats that has to do with Red prices? Btw im not gonna upgrade carbon woven package in future but i dont come here screamin yellin how the fuck CF prices too much for me?
Red never promised they are gonna get cheaper
Red never promised they ll upgrade every camera
Red never promised your camera will be same worth next year while you upgrading.
If you had Carbon Fiber Epic i understand if you are furious about half price lost on upgrade but all the big whiners seems like they dont even own any Red equipment.

as so many of your posts, you don't make any sense. I get that English is not your native tongue, and it is not mine either, but if u don't understand posts then just DO NOT REPLY....

Obviously, I did not "attack Phil". He asked for my opinion about W and I stated it.

I meant what I said - I (sincerely) hope he is being compensated one way or another for all the hard work he does, as he spends a lot of time doing the charts and the tests and then doing the write-ups. A lot of time that he puts in that he does not have to do. Especially sharing knowledge and findings of his in-depth tests. And btw dude, I'm not the only one with that opinion.

the prices are not "too much" - money is relative, u fool - the upgrade prices are not worth the features. For ME. As a brand new purchase, W is priced quite fairly. All clearly stated. That is obviously just my point of view for my particular needs.

YOU particularly need to learn to differentiate. And then you need to learn to understand the difference between a price and a perceived value.

And then u need to understand that RED can do whatever they want. And we can buy whatever we want.

Let me give u an example that is easier to understand:

I buy a standard Kebap for 5 bucks. Good stuff. Now the guy tells me, hey for another 5 bucks we can take ur Kebap and put some toppings on it... some "special sauce" and some extra crazy "goat cheese".

I am not interested in that. I do not want the special toppings.

Obviously - coming full circle - I could just buy 2 standard Kebaps and get more bang for my buck.

Makes sense ?

:blush:

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

as so many of your posts, you don't make any sense. I get that English is not your native tongue, and it is not mine either, but if u don't understand posts then just DO NOT REPLY....

Obviously, I did not "attack Phil". He asked for my opinion about W and I stated it.

I meant what I said - I (sincerely) hope he is being compensated one way or another for all the hard work he does, as he spends a lot of time doing the charts and the tests and then doing the write-ups. A lot of time that he puts in that he does not have to do. Especially sharing knowledge and findings of his in-depth tests. And btw dude, I'm not the only one with that opinion.

the prices are not "too much" - money is relative, u fool - the upgrade prices are not worth the features. For ME. As a brand new purchase, W is priced quite fairly. All clearly stated. That is obviously just my point of view for my particular needs.

YOU particularly need to learn to differentiate. And then you need to learn to understand the difference between a price and a perceived value.

And then u need to understand that RED can do whatever they want. And we can buy whatever we want.

Let me give u an example that is easier to understand:

I buy a standard Kebap for 5 bucks. Good stuff. Now the guy tells me, hey for another 5 bucks we can take ur Kebap and put some toppings on it... some "special sauce" and some extra crazy "goat cheese".

I am not interested in that. I do not want the special toppings.

Obviously - coming full circle - I could just buy 2 standard Kebaps and get more bang for my buck.

Makes sense ?

:blush:

Yeah go ahead and buy 2 Dragons instead of W like i said nobody is stopping you from doing this.

 

[Mike Nagel]

@ Phil:

We're in the same boat... the real upgrade is CF W 8K. The big sensor with the full processing power boards.

I don't see the sense in the MG W (as an upgrade)... The perceived value of the MG W - from an upgrade perspective - is not great IMO. Again, buying new is a no brainer.

But W 8K at the current pricing... Very happy to see others pioneer this... ;-)

The whole thingy with the F65 made a lot owners (that do not rent out) very aware how fast u can flush a substantial chunk of money down the toilet... if the competition just manages to bring out one really good cam for 20-30K it's gonna hurt...

Mag upgrade program is absolutely great. I think it's "not well balanced" (doesn't make any sense) that a 64GB mag get the same discount than 240/256GB mag, but some win more than others... ;-)


Jarred mentioned that one of the reasons the NAB deal was 10K for 8K is because it's a batch order... which makes complete sense. And that goes for everything.

I think (some of) the pricing is bonkers and I think it'd be smart to get more peeps on board (that fully commit) and bring pricing down. Reduces ROI risk for everybody involved and keeps a broader RED user base. There are way more RED owners than peeps who rent out.

I hope RED does well in this round so they can continue with the next gen sensor upgrade etc...

 

[Sergio Perez]

Its business, folks. No one is here to "help" anyone. Are you an independent filmmaker? Currently there are no more excuses if one wants to achieve a breakthrough in the indie world if one is talking independent cinema. Red obviously is targeting other markets for 8K Vista.

So for the independent , or those working without enough ROI for CF Weapon, Magnesium is the upgrade path if one is to stay in the Red Ecosystem. I am eventually going Magnesium for the end of the year. That will probably be my last Red upgrade for a few years.

 

[dino g]

man, if that is a direct quote, that is poor business sense IMO...


that was not a direct quote per se. it was a characterization of the concept of putting up money for the upgrade that was substantial enough to cover the cost of gearing up the line with processes and parts. and more importantly getting a sense of how many widgets to order...so if you had a problem with the example as written, it is not on BC, BC rocks and kicks the shit out of himself everyday for us. never a bad word should be said about that man on this forum. he is 100% committed to doing the right thing always...trust me I have been here since day 1 and believe me I have tested him over and over....he is a true rock star and the backbone of this company! yes i said it, one man is the backbone of this company in my opinion and it is Brent Carter.

now carry on with your opinions about this and that...just wanted to clear up any misconception that i was speaking for RED, I was not.

dino

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

Just curious Mike, what is "underwhelming" about the upgrade for you in particular? Just curious and I'd imagine RED would be too.

just my 2700000 cents...

- Faster Power On Time
I can turn on a 5d and snap a photo in about 6 seconds, that should be the goal.
Powering on the camera still takes too long, its almost unusable for wildlife work
Powering on the camera and then waiting for it to reach the ideal black shade temp is extremely annoying for feature film work. Maybe this auto black shade will help, but I would find it hard to trust - I would prefer to just have more black shade memories.

- Power Save mode that does something
Current power save dims the lcd and thats about it, no measurable savings - and when the camera comes out of power save mode it spazs out more often then not, making power save mode unusable. What kind of power save mode has the fans still running at 100%?
If you cant make the camera power on and be ready to shoot faster, at least add a usable power save / sleep mode.

- Timecode Out. Retarded not to have it except with some giant goofy module.

- 4k HDMI/SDI out. NO EXCUSE this is not included at this price point, just lame.

- QUIET at low compression ratios. Dragon at 6k/24/4:1 or 6k/60 gets LOUD fast. Maybe this is better, but I'll believe it when I hear it.

- Switching from a modular media bay to a Fixed ssd bay is a big step backwards. The minimags are just normal m-sata ssds in a nice metal case, they max out at 500MB/s 6g speeds and always will. I would be perfectly happy if they dropped both 1.8 mags and mini mags, and switched to a new ngff/m.2 pcie based ssd redmag - at least that has some future, and MUCH MUCH faster download times. Faster download times would be worth the entire upgrade cost alone.

- Cable free LCD/EVF is cool, but doesn't seem well thought out - if I add a vmount, the battery is going to obscure the LCD in its fixed cable free mounting point.

- Removing Phantom power from the mic inputs on the base module. 10 steps backwards.

- Smaller/Lighter is great for wildlife shoots, happy to pay a premium for it - but Weapon + base module + battery module = does not seems any smaller or lighter.

- Moving the connectors from the lower back where ACs would be constantly trying to blindly jam in the dc connector or timecode connector is great. Dropping DC in from the body, terrible.

-No powered side handle, 20 steps backwards.

- DNX. I dont really care about non-raw recording, but the prores feature is useless. For feature films we would need DNX down converts, prores is useless for avid workflows. Episodics would want 4k prores, which is not offered.

- less Cmos smear and glowing dots good, but that should really be fixed on Dragon too.

- No LDS data on new PL mount. Nobody uses lenses with i-pin data for VFX work, LDS data is essential, Sony and Arri both support it. This is a big disappointment this still is not available, it pretty much forces you to use an Arri UMC controller and creates extra post headache syncing the umc data file to video selects, when it all should just be in metadata.


Weapon as a "usability" body upgrade is not very interesting at all, We'll upgrade for less compression at 6k/60 and for 8k , but its a really tough sell - the history of the F65 is a very good analogy Mike made.

 

[Leroy Jackson]

Personally I'm saying put. Christopher said pretty much everything I was thinking.