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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

$101,800.00 for basic 8K package

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Humberto Rivera

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I’m going to assume for a NEW CLIENT of the “Epic Dragon Weapon/Stealth Camera” in an 8K Carbon Fiber configuration, fully loaded, ready to go is $67,500.00 in 6K + $20,000.00 for 8K = for a total of $87,500.00 when the 8K CF is release at the end of 2015 or start of 2016, meanwhile we wait with the 6K Carbon Fiber Camera. I want thank Phil Holland’s a photo that I use for reference.

Ok $87,500.00 for the 8K camera; plus 1T Mini-Magazine at $3,900.00 (I would actually need more); WEAPON Touch 7" LCD for $2,950.00; $1,750.00 which includes a 3.5mm microphone-jack, headphone jack, HDMI out, HD-SDI out, CTRL, SYNC, DC in; a REDVOLT XL slot, 12V DC IN, 2x 12V 3.8A Aux ports, also trickle charges attached batteries at $1,150.00; WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module at $1,150.00 for one (we would need more); the WEAPON Top Handle for $550.00; include at no additional cost is the Side SSD Module and MG PL Mount; Additional warranty protection $2,850. This protection plan extends the standard 2-year warranty by 2 years (4 years total); for a grand total of $101,800.00. There is no lens, or Matt-Box included in the package, or base plate.

This is what I got from the information printed for the Camera as is set up above; I’m not sure if it’s right or not, so pleases advice, anyone can chime in. Thank you!

Humberto Rivera
 
OK you can subtract any of these items from my computation from the $67,500.00.
1 WEAPON (Woven CF) BRAIN w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Woven CF)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 REDVOLT Charger (Quad)
2 REDVOLT XL
1 WEAPON RED Touch 7.0" LCD
2 RED MINI-MAG (512GB)
2 RED MINI-MAG (1TB)
1 RED MINI-MAG Station
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 DMSC Quick Release Platform Pack
1 DSMC Mounting Plate
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 2-Year Standard Warranty
1 AC POWER ADAPTOR (DSMC)
1 DSMC Mg PL Mount (Captive)
1 RED MINI-MAG Case (4-Pack)

Humberto Rivera
 
Not true. The new camera package is not dependent on NAB. But, you won't get the extra $5000 new camera accessory credit or the option to go to 8K sensor all-in for $10,000 once those offers expire.
 
Or you could just rent it when you need it and not blow $102K at one time. Just a thought. I know of many, many crews that just rent a camera a day or two a week for commercials, or get a package deal for 7-8 weeks for a feature, and there are lots of good rental/lease deals out there.

You should thoroughly explore the sobering realities and cost of doing post in 8K before planning to shoot in 8K. I know of several producers who were quite surprised at how costly and time-consuming it was just to do a full 4K end-to-end workflow for certain projects, particularly when there were tight budgets and deadlines involved.
 
The real consideration is not the "cost" of the camera, rather the ROI. Got a friend who won't even think of going Dragon not to mention Weapon. Why? The Epic is a fat cash cow for him. The greater regret I have about Red product t is that I never upgraded my Scarlet to Epic MX when Red 1st introduced the program. Scarlet (in my market) has such a low ROI, heck I've even been on productions where I was given an Epic MX to use just because the producers "believe" it produces better picture. Not that they even need any sort of high frames, all 24fps. Its my market where I exist. Now I got an Epic Dragon, and guess what? Producers and music video directors won't even hire! Why? they are afraid 6k pipeline would create post bottle neck with current post hardware, f*** $%&t! Then i tell them, shoot 4k or 5k on Dragon, but you know how the human mind wworks, most rather play safe and go with something they've used well before.
My friend's Epic MX rents 5 times as faster than my Epic Dragon.....LMAO. I even learned of a production that rented Epic Dragon (for 3weeks) only to return it after the 1st day of shoot requesting Epic MX from the rental house.
So, the bitter truth, as much as the product is important, the market is king! If you can guarantee a healthy ROI on your investment, then the price isn't the most disturbing thing otherwise even if Weapon is selling for $10k, if you can't guarantee a healthy ROI then its not going be worth it for you
 
Let’s take another look at a NEW BUYER of the “Red Epic 8K Dragon Weapon/Stealth Camera” WHEN IT’S AVAILABLE. By the way the “Red 8K Camera” will be by far the best Camera in the Market, and its followers have been struggling, and I do mean struggling for ever to keep up with Red, and they continue to do so, I just wanted to STATE MY OPINON! I would politely say to all those people that have a complaint about the price, for whatever their reasons, to take it down a few notches, because Arri or Sony would not ever do the same thing, and with a cameras far more expensive than Red.

Now the “Red Epic 6K Dragon Weapon/Stealth Camera” package contains the following; 1 WEAPON (Woven CF) BRAIN w/ Integrated Media Bay; 1 WEAPON Sidekick (Woven CF); 1 WEAPON Base Expander; 1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module; 1 REDVOLT Charger (Quad); 2 REDVOLT XL; 1 WEAPON RED Touch 7.0" LCD; 2 RED MINI-MAG (512GB); 2 RED MINI-MAG (1TB); 1 RED MINI-MAG Station; 1 WEAPON Top Handle; 1 DMSC Quick Release Platform Pack; 1 DSMC Mounting Plate; 1 WEAPON Package Case; 1 Two-Year Standard Warranty; 1 AC POWER ADAPTOR (DSMC); 1 DSMC Mg PL Mount (Captive); 1 RED MINI-MAG Case (4-Pack) This the entire Package for $67,500.00 + $20,0000.00 for the Red Upgrade to 8K = $87,500.00.

IT DOES NOT CONTAIN a View finder so let’s add what the old one cost of one; it does not include a remote means of follow focus like The FIZ or some other method of your choice, that’s difficult but let’s just for the sake of a low number for Preston Cinema Systems (just for calculating the NUMBER IS NOT TRUE) put down $12,000.00; or any other company such as Element Technical; Additionally a warranty protection for $2,850. This protection plan extends the standard 2-year warranty by 2 years (4 years total).

There are many more things that depending on your needs you might want to add, like lenses, but I can say THAT IN MY OPINION “Red Epic 8K Dragon Weapon/Stealth Camera” will be somewhere in the vicinity to buy at $100,000.00 to $150,000.00 (or rent) and that’s not bad for a Camera that can do so much, and by the way it’s far less than the same thing on an Arri or Sony Camera. There are DIFFERENT NEED for each one of you lessening to this, so “MILLAGE MAY VARY” on how you drive. The Storm will pass and sometime down the road things will be back to normal, and we will forget all this things said about the Price, BUT JUST LET ME SAY, you people with credit coming from whatever program, are getting a GOOD DEAL! I wonder if when PANAVISION dominated the Camera & Lenses scene with “Feature Film Productions” with its endless rolls of 35 mm Film Stock, development, and Scanning, and Independents using 16 mm Color Negative if there was so much Greif. Remember that all prices are “Ball Park” nothing is written in stone, BUT IN MY OPINION they relatively correct.

Humberto Rivera
 

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Why the “Red Epic 8K Dragon Weapon/Stealth Camera” when it’s available a is good idea for the future, here a recent article from the “Definition Magazine; NAB Wrap up Issue” in Phil Holland’s own words.
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...5_wrap.pdf?token=wf2zj+Z/ZQ3FS9sL6l3OVVX6e8M=
“All You Need To Know About RED’s 8K Road Map And Their Weapon.

Q. What do you know about the 8k Weapon?
A: At NAB 2015 RED announced their new Weapon camera which features the RED Dragon sensor technology. There were three models announced at the show. The Weapon 6K Carbon Fiber, the Weapon 6K Magnesium, and the upcoming Weapon 8K Carbon Fiber. RED Weapon represents a great deal of effort to produce an extremely compact fully fledged high end production camera. It features a host of new technology like a smaller/lightweight body design, simultaneous recording of REDCODE RAW and ProRes Quicktimes onto the same media, 3D LUT Support, WiFi, higher data rates, increased internal bandwidth, increased processing power, new “cableless” EVF/LCD connections, newly designed top fans, newly designed camera ventilation, new module attachment system, new more powerful compact modules, built in scratch microphones, and vastly improved Black Shading “auto” calibration.
And there’s even more than that, but the simple explanation is the Weapon camera body is a step into the future. I like to think about Weapon as the evolution of RED’s DSMC (digital stills and motion camera) concept they introduced with the Epic and Scarlet camera “brains” (bodies). With Weapon we have a move into “DSMC 2.0” and there’s a great deal of forward thinking technology with features that productions and shooters have been asking for. Certainly not an entry level camera, but 100% a production workhorse.

Q: Is there an upgrade path to it?
A: RED Weapon is available as an upgrade to all Dragon sensor RED cameras. Which means primarily RED Epic, Epic Carbon Fiber, and Scarlet cameras that currently have the Dragon sensor in them. Also, you can purchase a new Weapon 6K Carbon Fiber body as well. Both of these programs begin summer 2015. At the moment Weapon 8K Carbon Fiber is only being offered as an upgrade from Weapon bodies and that program begins late 2015. RED rewards its customers and “early adopters” and for those Dragon owners who purchased before NAB 2015 there are various trade-in credits and accessory credits that have been offered.

Q: Does 8K make sense outside of Japan where they plan to broadcast it?
A: 8K doesn’t exclusively exist in Japan, though they are very focused on bringing 8K broadcast to life. A long while ago the UHD and DCI specifications were defined for 4K and 8K productions. Before that we were scanning film in at 4K, 6K, and 8K resolutions for 4K laser recording from the mid 90s through the 2000s. What you are seeing is “more 8K on the rise” at the moment. In Japan they will be starting their first 8K broadcast trials in 2016 and their focus is to broadcast the 2020 Olympics in 8K as well.
For me as a filmmaker there’s more going on here however. The Weapon 8K Dragon sensor is approximately the size of one of my favorite motion picture formats called “Vista Vision”. I’ve been waiting for over a decade for a digital cinema Vista Vision camera to come to market to explore this format for theatrical releases and now our new higher resolution UHD 4K and 8K televisions. RED found something special with the Dragon sensor technology that provided a lot of “film relevance” in how it performed. We’ve known for some time in the industry that Super 35mm film resolves about 4-5K of resolution and Dragon provides 5K resolution in the approximate Super 35mm format size. Additionally Dragon has a very high dynamic range of 16+ stops, vastly improved color rendering, and nearly no “digital thumbprint” to its smooth highlight roll-off.
RED long ago set forward the notion of a “digital film alternative” with their cameras starting with the RED One and original M sensor. However, with Dragon they’ve truly hit and exceeded that goal as we are surpassing several of the technical merits of film for the first. The allure of 4K and 8K resolution for me stems from a simple concept I like to call “The Window Effect”. The general idea is that at these higher resolutions and generally higher quality image the audience’s viewing experience brings them “closer” to the content by removing more of the “digital divide” and awareness of them knowing/feeling that they are looking at a tablet, television, or silver screen. Essentially 4K and 8K brings them to the worlds and stories we are creating quicker and in a much more beautiful and vibrant way. Combined with some of the other technological developments like HDR displays, Laser Projection, and dense 300-600PPI screen technology people will be seeing content in a way they’ve never experienced before and it will feel much more real than ever.

Q: Would this be REDs IMAX camera? Are there any other roles for it?
A: Dragon 6K found on Epic Dragon cameras have already been used for IMAX productions and 8K capture and projection will be perfect for the “pure IMAX experience”. IMAX cameras are actually 15- perforations 70mm film and feature a very large film negative imaging plane. The 8K Dragon Sensor found in Weapon is a bit larger than the Vista Vision format, which is a bit smaller than 15-perf IMAX. However, the pixel resolution will likely match or exceed what viewers have experienced before, especially when it comes to IMAX digital projection. I personally think and hope that 8K projection comes to more theatres as it will produce a tremendous “movie going” experience. If combined with things like Dolby’s new Atmos system for sound and 4K and 8K Laser Projection audiences will have very immersive experiences. 8K will also make it into homes. 4K and 8K are basically the industry’s newest standards and we’ll be making content for 4K and 8K for years to come. This extra 8K resolution doesn’t just have “display” benefits, but it’s also something to creatively explore as a “problem solver” from the shooter’s perspective.
The new Red Weapon brain is smaller and lighter that previous brains the rise” at the moment. In Japan they will be starting their first 8K broadcast trials in 2016 and their focus is to broadcast the 2020 Olympics in 8K as well.
For me as a filmmaker there’s more going on here however. The Weapon 8K Dragon sensor is approximately the size of one of my favorite motion picture formats called “Vista Vision”. I’ve been waiting for over a decade for a digital cinema Vista Vision camera to come to market to explore this format for theatrical releases and now our new higher resolution UHD 4K and 8K televisions. RED found something special with the Dragon sensor technology that provided a lot of “film relevance” in how it performed. We’ve known for some time in the industry that Super 35mm film resolves about 4-5K of resolution and Dragon provides 5K resolution in the approximate Super 35mm format size. Additionally Dragon has a very high dynamic range of 16+ stops, vastly improved color rendering, and nearly no “digital thumbprint” to its smooth highlight roll-off. RED long ago set forward the notion of a “digital film alternative” with their cameras starting with the RED One and original M sensor. However, with Dragon they’ve truly hit and exceeded that goal as we are surpassing several of the technical merits of film for the first.
The allure of 4K and 8K resolution for me stems from a simple concept I like to call “The Window Effect”. The general idea is that at these higher resolutions and generally higher quality image the audience’s viewing experience brings them “closer” to the content by removing more of the “digital divide” and awareness of them knowing/feeling that they are looking at a tablet, television, or silver screen.
Essentially 4K and 8K brings them to the worlds and stories we are creating quicker and in a much more beautiful and vibrant way. Combined with some of the other technological developments like HDR displays, Laser Projection, and dense 300-600PPI screen technology people will be seeing content in a way they’ve never experienced before and it will feel much more real than ever.

To be continued
 
Continued

Q: Would this be REDs IMAX camera? Are there any other roles for it?
A: Dragon 6K found on Epic Dragon a camera has already been used for IMAX productions and 8K capture and projection will be perfect for the “pure IMAX experience”. IMAX cameras are actually 15- perforations 70mm film and feature a very large film negative imaging plane. The 8K Dragon Sensor found in Weapon is a bit larger than the Vista Vision format, which is a bit smaller than 15-perf IMAX. However, the pixel resolution will likely match or exceed what viewers have experienced before, especially when it comes to IMAX digital projection. I personally think and hope that 8K projection comes to more theatres as it will produce a tremendous “movie going” experience. If combined with things like Dolby’s new Atmos system for sound and 4K and 8K Laser Projection audiences will have very immersive experiences. 8K will also make it into homes. 4K and 8K are basically the industry’s newest standards and we’ll be making content for 4K and 8K for years to come. This extra 8K resolution doesn’t just have “display” benefits, but it’s also something to creatively explore as a “problem solver” from the shooter’s perspective.
However, I also work primarily in the world of Visual Effects; feature Films and productions that are concerned about creating the “best possible” image. That extra resolution will be incredibly useful for VFX applications as a tool. 8K also represents another step in “future proofing” content which makes a lot of sense for certain productions. There will also be some visual image quality improvements due to the added bandwidth and processing power on Weapon, and that’s a factor as well. Generally speaking, the biggest incentive for me to invest in the Weapon camera and upgrade comes down to providing my clients, studios, and productions more of what they’ve been asking for. Being able to offload ProRes files quickly at the time of REDCODE RAW capture is going to be very important to some shooters. DITs can spend less time trans-coding if certain on set workflows are explored. That saves everybody time and money really.

Q: What have RED said about the future of their cameras at NAB?
A: The focus for RED this year at NAB 2015 was Weapon 6K and 8K. As well as showing off more 4K Broadcast functionality using things like Epic Dragon and the REDCAST Module. 4K was everywhere at the show and we saw more 8K at NAB than ever before. In many ways RED’s been leading the way on helping push 4K and 8K technology forward and they’ve been “the early bird” consistently. As for the future of their cameras and what’s to come on the horizon it’s too soon to tell. However, before NAB 2015 RED announced several official vendors, authorized rental houses, and even opened up the RED STORE MIAMI strengthening their national and international support and availability of their gear. This is actually something that’s very important for a shooter like me as I mostly work in Los Angeles, but I have had four jobs in the last year that have taken me outside of the USA to shoot elsewhere in the world. Having that global support provides much more confidence when I need to kit up abroad or if I drop a camera in the ocean, which I haven’t done yet (knock on wood).

Q: The look of RED seems to be getting better. Are the new sensors markedly better and the ways R3D is being handled?
Yes and that’s something productions have noticed as well. This is largely due to the Dragon sensor and what features it provides. People see 8K, 6K, and 5K resolution often without taking into account the format size, but for motion picture professionals having that film format to resolution relevance is rather important as it “is” part of the way those making films with actual film that might be making the transition to digital cinema cameras work. It affects the look, the lenses, and general shooting methods. However, the biggest thing really is Dragon’s color. It’s providing some of the best color we’ve ever seen out of a sensor and that’s due to improved Color Science, vastly improved Infrared Cutting/Blocking, and the sensor’s very high Dynamic Range of 16+ stops. That Dynamic Range plays a role into the more natural Highlight Roll-Off. The combined efforts of all of these things have produced a very “film-like” digital image that is very flexible to work with. We’re at a special moment right now with RED digital cinema cameras with this newer Dragon sensor. It’s become as familiar as shooting film and it’s producing on par or even surpassing the image quality of shooting on film. RED makes cameras that are “multi-format” systems; much like film was never “one format”. With the upcoming Weapon 8K Carbon Fiber body using that Dragon sensor we’ll have digital equivalents of Vista Vision, Super 35mm, and Super 16mm with resolution to format size relevance. Which also means if you are using glass designed for those formats you get what you’d be looking for as well? Creatively that’s exciting because you might want to use 8K Vista Vision for one production or scene and film at 5K Super 35mm for the rest of your production for a 4K finish. There are just so many exciting possibilities to explore. D
RED’s Weapon at this year’s NAB 2015. Pictures on this page © www.phfx.com”

Humberto Rivera
 
Here is an article were I FEEL that the “Red Digital Camera” has gotten the attention of the “Camera Rental Industry”, it was hosted by “Cook Optics” and it represents the first time the Red has gone to “Head to Head” with the Alexa on it’s their territory, the “Camera Rental Business”. It’s rather long but very interesting; Red can’t be ignored any more by the “Camera Rental Business” Worldwide. All because of the "Red Dragon Weapon/Stealth 8K Camera” it was a game changer.

http://www.fdtimes.com/2015/04/29/cooke-annual-nab-2015-gathering-anamorphics-zooms-rentals-red-8k/

Here is what Tarun Kumar had to say among other things; “Yes, yes. Totally RAW. In fact, we shoot no ProRes at all. That is because in India all our equipment is sent out with our people, so the camera guys carry the gear, they set it up, they upload the camera, and the cinematographers just has to do the creative part of it. The lighting crew has his own team to do the creative part, but all the operational part is handled by our crew, which, again, is picked by the cameraman. We do the operation, we do the data handling, the data wrangling, the data management, we create the proxies and give it to the editors, and we also have a big post facility so it comes back to us for post. And so we make it easy for them all the way through, from end to end. So there’s no difficulty, the learning curve is not so steep, and in post they find it easy to do the grading and they’re delighted to work in RAW.”

Humberto Rivera
 
To be fair, 8k Weapon will be the only purchasable Vista-Vision game in town if it comes out this year... So RED can charge whatever they want for ~12 months (and $100k is cheap compared to the film equivalent and/or however much an Alexa65 package *rents* for?) Glass is the biggest hurdle if it's prohibitively expensive to rent (e.g. rental houses would include the camera if you rent a set of 65/70mm glass for $20k/day*)

That said, I give it 18months before FF35/~VV digital cinema cameras hit in large numbers (and at bargain prices) from other manufacturers. To be honest, I thought we would've had it already, but it seems everyone is dragging their feet (or, more realistically, worried about lens coverage or codec efficiency). I do like the idea of 8k/FF and 4k+/s35-crop; I don't think other manufacturers will do much more than 4k for FF35/VV, which means their s35 crop will be sub-4k standard (though their low-light performance could potentially be through the roof!)



*exaggerated for effect.
 
Mike P. said:
To be fair, 8k Weapon will be the only purchasable Vista-Vision game in town if it comes out this year... So RED can charge whatever they want for ~12 months (and $100k is cheap compared to the film equivalent and/or however much an Alexa65 package *rents* for?) Glass is the biggest hurdle if it's prohibitively expensive to rent (e.g. rental houses would include the camera if you rent a set of 65/70mm glass for $20k/day*)

That said, I give it 18months before FF35/~VV digital cinema cameras hit in large numbers (and at bargain prices) from other manufacturers. To be honest, I thought we would've had it already, but it seems everyone is dragging their feet (or, more realistically, worried about lens coverage or codec efficiency). I do like the idea of 8k/FF and 4k+/s35-crop; I don't think other manufacturers will do much more than 4k for FF35/VV, which means their s35 crop will be sub-4k standard (though their low-light performance could potentially be through the roof!)



*exaggerated for effect.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. A7s is VistaVision. :)
 
Mike P. said:
To be fair, 8k Weapon will be the only purchasable Vista-Vision game in town if it comes out this year... So RED can charge whatever they want for ~12 months (and $100k is cheap compared to the film equivalent and/or however much an Alexa65 package *rents* for?) Glass is the biggest hurdle if it's prohibitively expensive to rent (e.g. rental houses would include the camera if you rent a set of 65/70mm glass for $20k/day*)

That said, I give it 18months before FF35/~VV digital cinema cameras hit in large numbers (and at bargain prices) from other manufacturers. To be honest, I thought we would've had it already, but it seems everyone is dragging their feet (or, more realistically, worried about lens coverage or codec efficiency). I do like the idea of 8k/FF and 4k+/s35-crop; I don't think other manufacturers will do much more than 4k for FF35/VV, which means their s35 crop will be sub-4k standard (though their low-light performance could potentially be through the roof!)

*exaggerated for effect.
Click to expand...

Is it common to shoot VistaVision with 65/70 glass?
 
Dunkan Wolf said:
Hmmm. A7s is VistaVision. :)
Click to expand...

So is the 5Dmk2 and that dropped in 2008 (and has ~1080p raw via ML). That's why I said I thought we would have had it already in a more digital cinema/production friendly package, but manufacturers seem to be dragging their feet... DSLRs with video modes are huge value for the money given the image they create, but they're not realistically production friendly (not that there's anything wrong with that... I just get apprehensive using it for something mission critical).

But yes, I would really like to see 4k A7s footage blown-up to IMAX... It's supposed to be 14+ stops, and it's low-light capabilities are insane (though I've only seen internally supersampled 1080 low-light footage, so it might not be as good at 4k 1:1.)

Mark Wilkinson said:
Is it common to shoot VistaVision with 65/70 glass?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant any legitimate "cinema glass" with an image circle that fully covers these massive sensors. *I thought* RED's 8k is actually bigger than VV, and VV is actually slightly wider (but slightly shorter) than FF35, so rehoused FF35 glass won't cover VV (let alone RED's 8k).
 
Last edited:
Mark Wilkinson said:
Is it common to shoot VistaVision with 65/70 glass?
Click to expand...

Yes. Most VistaVision shoots in the past utilized rehoused 125 Film (FF35) stills lenses or medium format lenses. There are a few complete rehoused sets of glass out there. Or the camera itself was modified to use the still lenses "natively".

There's actually more "motion designed" glass out now than there was in the 1950s or from the 70s-now than ever. And there's more coming actually. Just not here "today".
 
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