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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

waiting for scarlet

Rick Burnett said:
(snippet)
What if you want to mount a DSLR camera on a motorcycle and record it for the movie or short you are making. It's CMOS and will suffer from jello:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaDrS-yzIE

Go ahead and watch that clip at ANY of the resolutions (up to 1080p) and see how much it makes a difference...none.

Or better yet, I have the HV30 which has a MUCH BETTER performance in the rolling shudder department than my 7D, have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s&feature=related

You think people are going to accept that? I doubt it. My point is there are limitations in these DSLR cameras that are beyond resolution differences. Showing in lower def isn't going to hide these problems. A camera like Red has worked to reduce these issues and that means acquisition is going to be easier.

In my opinion of course :)
Click to expand...

Rick - not to wander off the very focused topic of this thread :Angel_anim: but...

interesting illustrations of the "jello effect." Do you have any idea whether the (presumably) fast reset times of Scarlet's sensor (5-9 ms??) will prove noticeably better than what these videos show? If I wanted to mount a camera on a bike, will I need something in addition to my Scarlet? (A CCD camera). Thanks.
 
Having never used a CMOS sensor with such a fast reset on a rolling shutter I really am not sure. I would think that in cases like the motorcycle which have extreme vibration that you'll still get jello, but I'd imagine it will be less. I'd say if the time to read the whole sensor was 1/2 then the amplitude of the image compression and expansion happening would be 1/2 much in terms of the amplitude of that effect. (If that makes sense).

When filming live events the other problem with rolling shutters is if someone uses a flash, the flash doesn't fill the whole image, depending on where the shutter currently is.

I'd say if you are doing ANYTHING that has extreme motion to the camera, any kind of rolling shutter is going to give you problems depending on how fast the camera moves relative to the zoom factor of your lens.

Where those extreme cases are with this camera (scarlet) I have no clue. I'm sure however when the camera is released and I get one, you can bet I will be doing these tests immediately as it really affects our hand held fight scene shots we like to do with the HVX200 since the 7D just fails miserably here.
 
Rick Burnett said:
(snippet)
I'm sure however when the camera is released and I get one, you can bet I will be doing these tests immediately as it really affects our hand held fight scene shots we like to do with the HVX200 since the 7D just fails miserably here.
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Rick - thanks for the response. I will undoubtedly also be testing this issue when I get my Scarlet but I am also looking for something that can be mounted on a bike to capture rapid motion well. For me, if the Scarlet isn't that camera, I'll want something that would cut well with Scarlet footage. Hmmm...

While I would own a 7D for stills, I am not that interested in it for motion anyway, and I am not that hung up on shallow DOF for most of what I do. I suppose one of the smaller CCD cameras might fill the bill; perhaps the new JVC HM100?

BTW - do you have any idea what the reset times are on the cameras shown in your post?
 
No clue on the reset times. I went and tried to do some searching as well. Some people have tried to figure it out, but I didn't find anything convincing. The other issue I am trying to determine is some cameras rolling shutter is also affected by the frame rate, others are not. What I mean in this is that if the shutter is a constant speed, I can see the rolling shutter being worse the slower your frame rate. If, however, they burst read all in one pass at the end of the exposure, then the rolling frame issue would be less of a problem. I am not sure what Red is doing.

The 7D tests someone posted indicated that the shutter was worse at 24p than 60p that I found, so this would make sense to me. For 60p, the slowest your shutter speed could be would be 16.6ms to capture that framerate.

We've kept our HVX200 for the moment as we are just not sure what to expect. I am also not sure if the new MX upgraded Red Ones are faster in this regard (as I am not sure if it's just the sensor or the sensor and other parts that affect the Red One).

If someone else knows?

personally, if you really have extreme jarring of the camera, like on a bike off-road, I don't know how you could do this without a global shutter. But, having no experience with even a Red One myself, I'd certainly defer that question to someone at Red.

I can say this though, the 7D rolling shutter is WAY BETTER than the D90 from Nikon. It opened my eyes up to the differences. (The HV30 was better than both by far).
 
These DSLRS shoot amazing video.

Here's a 1:1 frame grab of a friend's documentary shot with the 5D.

testmoire1.jpg
 
The one on the left is the unprocessed one. Not only is the 5D footage VERY soft at full HD, but the moiré on the sofa is almost unbearable.

My friend tried hard to minimize it working on the chroma. After quite some struggle he managed to hide some but in motion it still shows a lot.
 
Alex D. da Silva said:
Ok then! I believe you got what you paid for with the DSLRs. Not more, nor less.
Click to expand...

Very true. I think the price I paid for my 7D was a good deal personally.

I've shot enough video with it to know you need to pay attention to what you are shooting for this stuff! I'd say having a 720p HD field monitor OR a laptop you can drop the footage down to in ESSENTIAL with these cameras or you have NO WAY of seeing that Moire (or aliasing) in camera.

Also, the GH1 (Panasonic) doesn't have color in the Moire which is definitely one nice feature of it!

Rule #1: Know your equipment.
 
Film is not dead, but dying faster and faster..

Film is not dead, but dying faster and faster..

Sean Finnegan said:
RED and Canon's 5D/7D are certainly making an impact on the way movies are made. But it's premature to say that "film is dead" or that "by the time scarlet releases a large number of movies and television shows will use smaller cameras." I think the 5D and 7D are great tools for their price, and they're certainly capable of some great footage given a knowledgeable user behind the machine. But ultimately it's a niche camera, in my opinion. I also don't think that digital cameras are quite good enough to replace film cameras yet. Film cameras have been exposing film in the same way for a hundred years - and over that time period engineers have perfected the design and mechanics to create what you might consider a peak performance and efficient machine. Digital hasn't had that same time frame, and while it's come a long way, there's still a lot of distance to go in that respect.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on digital. I love digital and I shoot it like 80% of the time, since I'm a younger cinematographer and the majority of the work I do is in the low budget independent world. And I am super, SUPER stoked for Scarlet because of the possibilities it will allow me. But I don't think that you'll see digital formats take the "market share" in terms of productions for a long time...15-20 years is my guess.
Click to expand...

Hi Sean,

I've been an analoge photographer for 40 years. Suddenly it went very fast and for a great part it is gone. I'm afraid, that those 15-20 years will be a couple of years. ARRI is going to release a number of New Digital camera's,
like the Alexa. And they have the knowledge of design and mechanics. 3D will speed things up even more.
Cheers, Arie

http://www.lighthousepictures.nl
 
Arie van Dam said:
Hi Sean,

I've been an analoge photographer for 40 years. Suddenly it went very fast and for a great part it is gone. I'm afraid, that those 15-20 years will be a couple of years. ARRI is going to release a number of New Digital camera's,
like the Alexa. And they have the knowledge of design and mechanics. 3D will speed things up even more.
Cheers, Arie

http://www.lighthousepictures.nl
Click to expand...

What has really killed film for a lot of pro still shooters around here is the loss of good labs to support it, not the advantages of shooting digital. There is a significant infrastructure necessary to support film that has disappeared with the loss of the consumer market to digital. Most of the old pros I know didn't convert to digital willingly. They were dragged into it by the market shift kicking and screaming all the way.
 
Thanks for those pics showing DSLR footage for what it really is...pretty mediocre at best. It's good for some to see some of the downfalls of it. A lot of people forget this is a fantastic stills camera with a video function added on as an extra function and has major pitfalls. People will always get attached to something they can afford, and own and will hype these up for more than what they really are. I am sure Canon know they 'stumbled' onto a pretty big market potential and hence the 'scrambling' in trying to improve the 5D with some very basic video functionality with the last couple of firmware updates. BEWARE or be very excited about what they may have in development for future models. If they can get anywhere near what RED is saying they can do with Scarlet it will be very exciting with great competition which only serves everyone better in the long run. This is one of Jim's major foundation points of starting RED, to get them puling their fingers out!
BUT, they serve a great bargain price camera for newcomers as well as pro's in specialty rig camera cases as we are seeing. They don't compare in quality to just about any HD prosumer/broadcast camera system but they are cheap, give users some extra creative ability with DOF and with size and speed and overall costs to a production. Anyone with any knowledge and common-sense knows that they are making pretty substantial sacrifices by using them but if they are willing to accept all the many downfalls and most importantly can't afford a HD video camera from the P2's to EX series in either buying or renting, it's a great start. Mind you, i have used and know of others that have used the 5/7D as a 'b' camera for on the fly shots to match in with RED as it's DOF can match and helps for a cleaner cut. It goes back a little to my recent argument that i think it is one big factor that the DSLR's will have over a 2/3" sensor. Not for all as there are workarounds but for some it will matter, and for such a cheap price it will be their decision maker.

I also think the whole argument about net streaming content and everyone being happy with that as the future and that we can do away with top quality production as just nonsense. Kids will watch anything and they don't care, by basing an opinion that kids are happy so that's the future is just ludicrous. Net streaming is relatively new tech and in the future with speeds and bandwidth, streaming full 1080p from the net live will become a possibility and will be become a VERY popular way of the future without doubt...at the moment it's just for youtube crap etc. You can't believe with the way everything is moving in the future that people are going to be happy to accept SD or less crap on their big expensive flat screens well over 50". It looks utter shit at that rez. But when we get worldwide speeds and bandwidth for streaming live 1080p or greater that's when it may be commonly acceptable to most people and become another big time delivery method. And by that time, years from now, the current DSLR's will be so obsolete that they will be on the shelf and talked about with the, can you remember the days when this came out!
They're a bit like when the RED One came out that it changed everything and started a 'redolution' as i heard it referred to once, now it's the time of the DSLR for another 'canolution'...it's a rough start but exciting for the future. And i'm sorry, but Jim has to be thanked for getting it all kickstarted...or at least putting his foot up their ass!

My two cents..again:)
 
David Rasberry said:
What has really killed film for a lot of pro still shooters around here is the loss of good labs to support it, not the advantages of shooting digital. There is a significant infrastructure necessary to support film that has disappeared with the loss of the consumer market to digital. Most of the old pros I know didn't convert to digital willingly. They were dragged into it by the market shift kicking and screaming all the way.
Click to expand...

That's what happened to me. I used to shoot on Contax 6x4.5, my lovely Fuji 6x9 and a Linnhof 13x18... Shit happens.. Now clients want digital, a billion pics and not pay for it.. Same will happen for 35mm film.
Couple of weeks ago I've been to the BSC FILM & DIGITAL IMAGE EVALUATION, in Amsterdam. That was food for thought...

Arie van Dam.

http://www.lighthousepictures.nl
 
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