An honest question for the Red Scarlet audience like me.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If you are not a current user, you may have a different perception of their intent, that it is somehow Canon bashing or some other misguided interpretation. But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base. Your mileage may vary. Their zone plates didn't stop me from buying a 7D, because sometimes you have to sacrifice image quality for portability, hopefully EPIC and SCARLET's release mean that I will never have to make such compromises again. But meanwhile, I like knowing what I'm giving up in the process.

Exactly. :attention9ha:

I think many people are missing the point of the zone plate postings. It's not to bash these other cameras, but rather to show where the compromises are and what RED is offering in contrast to these vDSLRs. Many people on the forums here are already familiar with all this and don't really understand why we have to do it all over again. But there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. Simply posting a zone plate from a RED One does not mean a whole lot to someone who casually looks at it without any frame of reference. So throw up a 7D plate for comparison -- OMFG, it's hurting my eyes, take it away... Why would anyone post that? They must be trying to bash Canon or something.. Whatever.

The 7D is a great camera for the money. Initially, the video was a great selling point for me. Although, having shot a fair bit of video with it, I now cringe at the thought of doing so. But it's still another tool in the toolbox and fits into places where the RED One just can not go. Like many fellow 7D owners on these forums, I can't wait for the DSMC cameras to ship. The day I can have a DSLR style camera that can be built up as compact as I need or as big and featured as I want and always with the ability to shoot RAW... Oh, what a happy day that will be.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

7 pages?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't think the lizard footage counted. For one, it was 5 seconds long, showed no movement and gave us no idea about the dof or the low light capabilities. Still, if it was good enough to post online, im not sure why they did not show us something more.

I'm not asking for progress footage, just little clips to see the chip characteristics, nothing has to be set in stone but 2/3" will be 2/3" in terms of dof and low light and there is nothing Red can do to get around that. At this point, the sensor is close or done so a little teaser would really clear things up.

At this point, I have resorted to looking at SI 2K footage to get an idea of what to expect from the Scarlet, since it is the closest living relative at this time.

You could look at RED M-X footage cropped to 3k and probably get a fairly accurate idea.

 

[Bryce O]

I see no reason why Scarlet 3K would not blow away anything 35mm. I think it's about time I make that post...after seeing this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAX

Resolution and color wise? Probably. But aesthetically? Not even close. I was shooting with a HPX 2/3" this weekend and even with the fujinon lens at f1.5 wide open, it was still relatively flat until you get over 65mm. Sure you can make it look good, but generally 2/3" just doesn't pop like 35mm (and yes, even 35mm with artifacts). Otherwise, why wasn't the Red One 2/3"?

I read a comment earlier that DSLRs are not even remotely suited for film making. Stupidest comment I've ever heard. I think in the last decade we seen that pretty much ANY camera is suited for film making, let alone one that actually shoots 35mm. You could even say that DSLRs are actually the best cameras learning film making, in the sense that they teach important lessons. Like... DON'T RECORD AUDIO TO YOUR CAMERA. Any comment made about a DSLR not being a proper film making tool, due to poor audio recording, is thoroughly idiotic. Will the Scarlet (or any camera) record 24bit 96khz audio with an on board tube pre-amp + compressors and mixers? Some day hopefully. Until then, film makers need to realize capturing audio and capturing images are worlds apart. And should never be looked at as one and the same. You will never learn this lesson quicker than with the complete garbage that is DSLR audio. Is DSLR footage soft? Yea, but who cares. The resolution they capture fall into the "good enough" category. Especially since web delivery is most common these days. But, in the extremely rare case (and this applies to Red shooters and DSLR shooters alike) your dumb indie film actually gets theatrical distribution, your "soft 1080p footage" will be blown-up, up-ressed, cleaned, and sharpened by a multi-million dollar finishing house before the master film print. And besides 80% of the population still can't tell the difference between up-resed DVD and blu-ray. Besides, for horror, drama, and comedy (the three biggest indie genres) you don't need the resolution.

For indie film making, the DSLR's still look like the better choice. This especially goes for indie comedies where a multi-camera setup for capturing improv and such is much more important than resolution.

Why will the Scarlet still kick ass? VFX and 3D. A fixed lens Scarlet 3D rig is looking like it will destroy every other option out there. Shallow DOF looks terrible in 3D. Deep detailed frames where you're free to look around are the way to go and 2/3" seems like the perfect combination of deep focus and just enough depth to avoid a completely flat picture. And the high-frame rate will allow you to eliminate motion blur, the 24fps standard is the biggest killer of a fluid and natural stereoscopic experience. Scarlet will revolutionize stereoscopic production for both indie film makers and high-budget productions alike.

For traditional narratives though... I still want 35mm. If nothing else, for the freedom and selection of lenses. My biggest problem with the Scarlet line is lens choice. The fixed T2.6 is just too slow for shallow DOF and low-light photography. Even Pannny and Canon pro-summers go down to f1.6 range. And the mini-primes, even though I've heard are great lenses, seem like a waste at almost a grand each. When you upgrade to s35 Scarlet or Epic, what are you going to do with your s16 primes you dumped 5 grand into? Sell them? To who? You can't use them with larger formats, there's no still photography market for 16mm, and ENG crews use zooms. The fixed lens will still revolutionize VFX for low-budget productions though when you won't want shallow DOF and you have plenty of light at your disposal.

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

Release the hounds...

 

[Steven Caesare]

Nick your expecting WAY TO MUCH from a still NEW COMPANY. You should try to put yourself in there shoes. How old is RED? How long have they been in the market? A company this young just can not produce a new camera every year like canon, sony or panasonic and flood the market. They just don't have the capital, resources, and manufacture capabilities like other camera companies that been around for almost forever do. With the amount of money and research there putting into the epic/scarlet designs, it could make or brake their company. If they did release the scarlet as promised with out finishing the R&D work. What would happen if the camera had some serious fault when in the hands of the consumers? A wrong move like that can kill a new business. Especially a business that is invested in electronics such as this. Also your not really thinking the Scarlet/Epic camera designs through, who else designed cameras like this for the price? You have the ability to start out with the most basic 3k scarlet package and eventually end up with the epic, and not having to buy a complete new package. You should be happy that a company like this is keeping its users (and competitors) up to date on their camera development. I think there doing fine, there doing what they said they would do, as soon as every whos upgrading their sensors are done they should be testing the tattoos to the flew people they know who's gonna test the hell out of it to make sure there's big uniform seen no problems with the design, cause there's no really going back once there in production.

I know your post is in defense of Red, and I certainly agree with your setiment.

But... I'd argue that suggesting that Red is too small in terms of captial , R&D, manufacturing, etc.. and hence size is the the reason for any schedule slippage does a dis-service to Red.

Quite frankly, I'd venture that Red is investing MORE in R&D, design team, manufacturing relationships, and prodecut feature set for these products than Sony, Canon, or Arri. Perhaps many times more.*

Any delay, I suspect, is due to the sheer scope of the advancements Red is incporporating in to these platforms. If you look at the individual feature indicators, Red is giving them to us FASTER, than the competition. From concept to 4K faster than companies around for years. Lenses that leap frog a number of vendors pratically out of nowhere. 5K on the horizon a few short years after 4K, which other vendors still haven't done. Modularity. Dynamic range increases. Compression advancement. Distribution codecs. An ASIC more advanced than any on the planet. Framerates. The list goes on...

Quoite frankly I suspect that it's the small, focused, driven nature of this team that has turned the pace of innovation in hte industry on it's ear. I don't know much about the foplks inside of Red other than those that post here, or how many of them there are, but I am AMAZED at the breadth and pace of their development and production effort.

-sc

*The ideas in "the Mythical Man" month are probably an interesting application here...

 

[Martin Weiss]

I don't really know what to say, especially since Mitch summed it up so eloquently.

From my understanding you are basically blaming RED for being open? Why not just stop reading REDuser for the next months, and then whenever Scarlet is ready and will be released you can read the press release and pretend that RED is just like any other company.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Yes, it does annoy me that they advertise the fixed 2/3" as "ready to shoot out of the box" AND "120fps" when in all likelyhood you'll have to choose one or the other (even at reduced data rates I doubt CF can do 100fps).

Also while the brain prices seem great, shockingly low in fact, many accessory prices seem excessive. I wonder if they adopted the video game console approach and are selling the brains at or near cost and making it up with generous margins on modules?

But Red is still crazy awesome. It is absurd to consider any other camera, including everything from Canon 7D to $200,000 rip-off machines. If you don't understand why, here's what you do :

Go buy a DSLR. Shoot the same scene in both RAW and JPEG High Compression. Try to edit both photos in Lightroom. Compare your results. Place your Scarlet order on the spot.

Why not just stop reading REDuser for the next months, and then whenever Scarlet is ready and will be released you can read the press release and pretend that RED is just like any other company.

Martin I may have to do that; the amount of time I spend checking for new Recon threads is starting to impact my life.

 

[Deanan]

Yes, it does annoy me that they advertise the fixed 2/3" as "ready to shoot out of the box" AND "120fps" when in all likelyhood you'll have to choose one or the other (even at reduced data rates I doubt CF can do 100fps).

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

Music to my ears

 

[Nick D]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

If I understand you correctly Deanan, this means the CF module is sufficient to record at 120fps? Hence, no need for a SSD with the Scarlet?

 

[David Rasberry]

If I understand you correctly Deanan, this means the CF module is sufficient to record at 120fps? Hence, no need for a SSD with the Scarlet?

Burst mode is a very short time frame. Measured in seconds.

 

[Joe G.]

"It's freedom, baby!" -Austin Powers

You can buy, or not buy. Whatever.

 

[Jim Retar]

But this is how I perceive it - as an educational service to their existing customer base.

Well, how I perceive it is a bit more simple.... "this is why you shouldn't buy a 7D and should wait X months/years for our camera".

Call me a cynic.... that is just the way I call it.

They took down the "other cameras" section "because this is a RED forum" and then start talking about other cameras! Where are the EX3 plates? How about Nikon D3s? How about a Sumix test or Sony cine alta? Why have they only targeted the one camera everyone seems to be going wild for?

If 10% of REDusers feel the same way as me and see this as an attampt to disuade someone form buying a 7D, I think that is bad for business and they should just leave the tests to another forum like DVXuser (a forum where alot of people are discussing the reasoning of the recent 7D plate test... not many comments about how they are "providing an educational service")

 

[Sterling Wescott]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

This is great to hear. SSD are a little on the expensive side.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

ok, you're a cynic - they showed F35 zone plates at RED Day, I really have no idea whether those same plates were posted here. They also openly congratulated Sony for producing a killer new projection technology...

I don't spend much time at DVX, so I'm happy to have this information here, as I said, since I actually have an investment in these cameras.

RED is giving me useful information, not only for feeling secure in my investments, but also the information that they are providing helps us to differentiate our camera performance from the 7D - these questions do arise, and I really don't have time to run around testing cameras that I don't own or can't afford, like an F35 because I have actual commercial clients to serve.

And I can tell from my own experience what a 7D can and can't do - no RAW, only super slow moves...but groovy, I can use my Canon lenses for video, sweet!

But not everyone wants to buy a 7D and spend their time making these comparisons.

So yes, this type of information is useful to their user base in a very real-world way. Every once in a while, I will participate in a test when I have time, which is not often - since you are an active DVXuser, you may have even seen some of my work, which was posted by Jim Arthurs comparing RED (Build 12, I believe) with an EX-1 for the purposes of keying footage at 1080p.

I can tell you, that the results of this test were manipulated, propagandized, and distorted in oh-so-many ways, even long after the efficacy of the test had expired.

These were very specific tests, with a very specific purpose, clearly stated by Jim, and they were used to make all kinds of bogus conclusions that had really no basis in fact. In fact, I would still read people using that test post-Build 16 and post-Build 20, when they really were completely valueless, since it was an entirely different camera from that point on. But people would still use that test to draw their own ill-informed and biased conclusions, long after the efficacy had expired.

So, based upon my own real world experience and participation in testing, I can say first-hand and resolutely - posting to DVXuser really does absolutely zero in terms of insuring the impartiality of conclusions based on test results.

You don't seem to grasp the real-world value that these RED's tests have to actual RED users because you're occupying a space in which conspiracy theory trumps reality.

As I said, your mileage may vary. But I'm calling it as I see it. I found value in seeing a 7D (which I own and can afford) zone plate, a RED zone plate, and an F35 zone plate compared. That was interesting. I have a lot of respect for what all of these cameras can do, and once SCARLET is out, someone will be the happy owner of a used 7D in really good condition, but until then, I'll keep shooting with it, knowing its limits.

So yes, I found that educational even if you prefer to cry "conspiracy". Tomato, tomahto. As long as I, as a RED owner, have that perspective, then yes, education as a motive is at least as equally valid as conspiracy theory.

 

[David Rasberry]

Someone posted a link to the BBC camera test website a while back. I read their test reports on quite a few different cams, including the R1. They also posted zone plates.
They did not even bother to complete testing of the Canon 5d2 after the zone plate shots, which were posted. Rejected it out of hand as not acceptable for HD broadcast production due to poor resolution and artifacts.

 

[Jim Retar]

You miss my point though.... even if their intentions are pure... it can look like the opposite.

Why risk bad PR?

As I stated way back in this thread... i'm on the fence... I like Red, I like Canon.... I have nothing against RED and have used the Red One several times with great success. I am, however, well trained in internet marketing and what RED are doing could look bad to quite a few people. People who control $100,000+ budgets for gear (and trust me, they can be put off a company with one bad/misinterpreted sentence).

 

[Jannard]

You miss my point though.... even if their intentions are pure... it can look like the opposite.

Why risk bad PR?

As I stated way back in this thread... i'm on the fence... I like Red, I like Canon.... I have nothing against RED and have used the Red One several times with great success. I am, however, well trained in internet marketing and what RED are doing could look bad to quite a few people. People who control $100,000+ budgets for gear (and trust me, they can be put off a company with one bad/misinterpreted sentence).

Maybe you should consider our posting the 7D Zone Plates as the reason why we took down "Other Cameras".

Jim

 

[Lee Saxon]

The camera can do it's max fps regardless of media speed in burst mode.

Y'all haven't announced exactly how long the bursts are going to be, right?

I'm guessing burst modes are done in the buffer, and then written back to the media at a much lower speed, like on my DSLR?

That's certainly cool but it doesn't really invalidate my [minor!] complaint. I was planning on getting an SSD anyway, though. Also I'm gonna repost this just so you don't think I'm a hater :

"But Red is still crazy awesome. It is absurd to consider any other camera, including everything from Canon 7D to $200,000 rip-off machines. If you don't understand why, here's what you do :

Go buy a DSLR. Shoot the same scene in both RAW and JPEG High Compression. Try to edit both photos in Lightroom. Compare your results. Place your Scarlet order on the spot."