Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Michael Hastings]

I am very interested in this DUCLOS tokinia.11-16mm reconverted PL mount system..I see Amund..you have one..how is this lense for you...is the depth of field good at 5.6....it would be a good add on to rent my unit out with a camera/underwater ready lense to go kit...and AT$3000.OO...ABOUT $1600.OO less THEN THE CANON/BIRGER/Aquavideo control system..
900.o for Canon 10-22mm..Birger 1300.00 and Aquavision kit 1600.00 plus shipping and Canadian import taxes...BUT of course.I am limited to 1 wide lense on a PL mount...where with the Canon combo I can use other lenses as well.....decisions.always a hassle..kozzzzzzzzzzz

That $3000 doesn't include any but the simple bent shaft controls you have AND your comparing apples to oranges. The Tokina lens is $599 in Canon mount from B&H (which is where duclos got a lot of them). And you can buy the Sigma 18-50 for $419 which is the same as the RED 18-50. AND those lenses have built in iris and focus motors THAT ARE DEACTIVATED OR STRIPPED OUT FOR THOSE REHOUSINGS! Kind of crazy in a way UNLESS you are using it (out of a housing) in a narrative cinema style follow focus shoot. Which you could still do with the EOS smart mount and Impero controller.

So figure $599 Tokina 11-16 plus $1285 Birger + $1600 AV control = $3484 so for $500 more you have the same lens; a smart mount that let's you use any Canon EOS or compatible lens (like the 17-55 f2.8 IS, 24-70 2.8 , 70-200IS 2.8, all between $900 and $1800 and optically superior to the RED PL zooms) with full control; INCLUDING Image Stabilization, and the underwater controller that allows you to switch lenses in seconds and have instant focus and iris control. You can also use the Birger EOS mount as a dumb mount with $20 adapters with Nikon, Contax Zeiss C/Y (used for $250 - $800 and the same lenses they rehoused into the compact primes), Leica, Pentax and other manual lenses. And a quicker switch PL mount on top of the Birger is also possible for a few hundred dollars. (Hint)

Not knocking the Duclos Tokina, but to me unless you have a lot of PL or are consistently working on all PL shoots, I question whether it makes the most sense.

BTW I would probably lean toward the EOS Tokina 11-16 f2.8 over the Canon 10-22 f3.5 due to the extra half stop of light.

Just saw this on the thread where Jarred talks about he and Greg Williams shooting the new esquire Sexiest Woman Alive 2009 video with the new Epic 5K sensor in a converted R1:

We used RPP's for the meat and potatoes and also Canon still lenses for a couple long shots and for an ultralight rig... Greg literally has every Canon lens ever made, so with the help of Birger mount it was easy for him to use his exiting kit.. another strongpoint of the whole DSMC program.

And the shots with the Epic 5K sensor where shot in 4.5k... Imran got it right.

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/video/who-is-the-sexiest-woman-alive-2009?click=pp

ie. the Greg Williams, the principal photog on that shoot, used Canon on Birger by choice. And brings up another advantage which is that if you decide to go with the full frame Epic down the road, the Tokina and none of the current RED lenses (except 300) will work. Your best choice for quite a while will be full frame SLR lenses like the 14mm (equiv to 9mm on R1) 24-70 zoom etc.. in fact all of the L lenses.

PS
Here's the downside of buying one of these Converted lenses: RED 18-50 For sale:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=472408#post472408

FS: Red 18-50mm T3 Imperial + Filters
Red 18-50mm T3 Lens + Filters + LensBaby Muse (PL Mount) $3,500 USD - O.B.O.

He's added $1000 worth of other stuff so probably would take $3000 or less for just the RED 18-50 that he paid $6500 for in the past year or so. a $3500+ loss. I doubt if I would lose more than $100 if I sold my EOS mount Tokina on ebay or more than two or three hundred on my more expensive Canon lenses.

 

[jim kozmik]

Alright Mike I will see u in 2 months at DEMA..will u have this Canon/Birger Aqua mount system their for me to have a look at...I am going to the Keys right after DEMA for a week..if i left the Aquavideo 4K housing with u could you mount your control panel for me to pickup a week later on my way back to frozen Canada...kozzz..and MIKE I do mean less then a week in Canadian days.....

 

[Michael Hastings]

A customer was asking me about what mm we should be looking for for underwater work. For underwater, for comparison purposes, most of the highend underwater stuff shot in the last 5 to 10 years was shot with 4.5mm wide angles on 2/3" sensor HD cameras which is 93+ degrees horizontal on 16:9 (Fujinon specs) which is equivalent to a 12mm for S35 motion picture/RED. (The new superwide is 4.3mm from canon at 96+ degrees - closer to 10mm) 100mm to 12mm is ideal. With rectilinear lenses it is really hard to be "too wide". You tend to get noticeably better clarity by reducing the subject distance even a few percent. A couple mm doesn't seem like much but remember 14 is 40% greater than 10 - the same percentage as 35 to 50.

Arri specs:

8R 114 degrees horizontal
10mm 102 degrees horizontal
12 mm 92 degrees horizontal
14 mm 82 degrees horizontal
__________________

Alright Mike I will see u in 2 months at DEMA..will u have this Canon/Birger Aqua mount system their for me to have a look at...I am going to the Keys right after DEMA for a week..if i left the Aquavideo 4K housing with u could you mount your control panel for me to pickup a week later on my way back to frozen Canada...kozzz..and MIKE I do mean less then a week in Canadian days.....

I probably will have RED housing and that controller at DEMA but not guaranteed. Dema is really a consumer level show for video and our main focus there will be the new JVC GY-HM100U (a tiny prosumer 3 chip) and some canon single chip cameras - Including an underwater 3D setup for about $4500 including two true 1920x1080p camcorders.

I'm not building much for stock this close to Epic. Hard to make a commitment 2 months in advance and during trade show time - if you are waiting to decide until then. Not saying I can't - but can't promise.

BTW if you are waiting on scarlet for underwater - take a look at the little JVC pic attached. Screen is visible in a 6" housing and it comes with a hot shoe XLR mic input/handle (not shown)

 

[Clark Dunbar]

Hey guys,

we got a new footage request in for -> "great white shark attacking/eating a seal" HD or RED..... so if anyone has something that fits we have a client looking.

Contact me here or directly thru Mammoth HD (www.mammothhd.com)

thanks,

 

[Matthew Duclos]

lol

 

[Amund Lie]

Hang on there Clark, I'll just step outside and get that shot!

Well, jokes aside, this would not be a common shot to have, and if one did, it would probably have been used in another production already. Out of curiosity, what would you pay for such a shot? I mean, if these things pay well, one could go to the right location and just wait it out until one gets the shot. It would probably take a few weeks and a fair amount of money for diving and upkeep, but if the pay is right...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Actually you can more "easily" get a shot of a seal attacking/eating a shark. To my knowledge such shots do not exist.

I spent months diving with seals and sharks do not seem to come close to the reef because they would just easily be game themselves in shallow waters. They hunt in the open ocean where they have more advantage. And filming in the open ocean is like looking for a needle in a hay stack just to find a shark let alone both shark and a seal in the same place at the same time.

Having said that, after researching the sequence for about 7 years, I think I finally worked out how to get maybe 1% of chance to film it. The cost? As usual: $3k-$5k per day for maybe 3- 4 months. Life insurance extra. :biggrin:

I am planning to try filming similar sequence early next year. Wanna come along to help attracting the sharks? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Clark Dunbar]

heya - half of all stock footage requests are for those shots that aren't posted in the footage libraries - a) they haven't been shot, b) too rare, c) too expensive to shoot, etc - the normal 'stock' is just available and thus aren't a 'special request'.

SO on something like this - if someone has shot it and in their library.. then there is a client looking. But - stock is stock and those looking are most of the time on a tight time requirement (they start looking to fill the project holes at the last minute) and they have a fixed budget......

....just the way it works.

hey Pawel - would love the trip, the dive...... but not interested in being the bait ;-)

 

[Pawel Achtel]

hey Pawel - would love the trip, the dive...... but not interested in being the bait ;-)

hehehe, give me a buzz early in the new year.

 

[Johnny Friday]

OptiTek Nikon Mount for UNDERWATER shooters

OptiTek Nikon Mount for UNDERWATER shooters

I have received my OptiTek Nikon mount a few weeks ago. Solid piece of equipment and a great solution for underwater shooting with Nikon lenses. I have both the Gates deep red housing and the Aquavideo red housing. Currently i have had to send my mount back to OptiTek to mill down two the two small rivets at the back of the mount since it did not allow the mount to sit flush on the PL mount. However, to be expected on an early production run.

What is important to know is this:
Aquavideo housing users can use this mount no problem....you should consider having gears to adjust iris. BUT the mount does work out of the box.

Gates deep red users: WILL NOT currently work. The gear ring sits slightly too far back of the first bulkhead of where the camera body is located. so your gears will not reach the gear ring. THE FIX: Jacek is making for Gates 20 gears that will slide onto the current mount that are shimmed forward of the bulkhead and allow you to use the adjustable iris gear to control iris functions.
** I FOR ONE AND ANXIOUSLY awaiting that new gear and if you are a GATES user, you'll need to contact GATES in order to get one of these. Jacek can not make one or two of these...He has to make a batch of twenty at a time, so Gates has committed to ordering twenty of these that can only be found at Gates.

As soon as i have mine back, I'll post some pics of it in the housing as well as upload some screen grabs of various Nikon lenses that i have that include: Nikon 14-24; Tokina 10-17 fisheye; Zeiss zf 100 macro; Nikon 105 and 60mm macro

 

[Amund Lie]

Johnny;
Why did you decide to go for the Optitek vs the Birger Mount? Existing Nikon lenses or other choice? Why was the Red Nikon mount not adequate, considering you are using manual controls anyway?

Amund

 

[Ross Isaacs]

Hey Amund
I just purchased a Duclos 11-16mm PL lens for my Deep Red how do you find the lens?
cheers
R

 

[Johnny Friday]

Johnny;
Why did you decide to go for the Optitek vs the Birger Mount? Existing Nikon lenses or other choice? Why was the Red Nikon mount not adequate, considering you are using manual controls anyway?

Amund

Amund,
The previous Nikon mount i had was the LongValley mount and it worked fine for me TOPSIDE while i had it. The only problems i ever encountered in the field (run and gun) and it was a mess of run and gun chasing walrus in a boat on floats of ice or while running across a raging creek to shoot salmon--there is a reason for these insights-- Anyway, as i said the LongValley mount was great, it's just that mounting longer lenses it felt somewhat flimsy--that may not be the right word, but also keep in mind in most cases i was not mounting the lens properly with a lens bracket and rods. We switched between long and short lenses and in the end it did a great job, but based on my use, it didn't pass the stress factor--topside that is.

As for underwater in a housing...it's a no brainer. The gearing is standard and can be used with standard 32pitch gears and when in the deep red housing, you can use the gates gears to manipulate iris on Nikon G lenses. Using the LongValley mount would have required additional engineering by Gates to make some sort of flexible whip and it would have for not. The best approach always was a geared iris control and the LongValley mount was a great stop-gap until this came along.

Now as for Birger---well, i am unaware of anything at the moment where i have geared control over the lenses. i've been off the Birger train a LONG time, so correct me if i'm wrong. BUT that said even if they do have a mount, i don't really have any cannon glass nor any that i think will do much better than the current PL and Nikon glass that i'm vested in. But for those with Cannon glass, i can see the appeal, but as far as i hear....the Birger mount still has some issues--is that still the case? And it would require additional engineering to have control in a housing. So just simplicity is really my attraction to the OptiTek mount.

you have a Birger then with controls made for your AV housing? what about the Gates?

 

[Johnny Friday]

Johnny;
Why did you decide to go for the Optitek vs the Birger Mount? Existing Nikon lenses or other choice? Why was the Red Nikon mount not adequate, considering you are using manual controls anyway?

Amund

Ah.....did not quite catch that. BUT, i'm using now a variety of G lenses:
Nikon 14-24; Tokina 10-17; Zeiss zf 100 to name a few underwater lenses
Topside: 80-400; 200-400; 18-200

so these lenses require aperature controls that either the Long Valley mount or OptiTek mount can only service as far as i know. Today that is....

I am unaware of the Birger mount though...Don't you need some type of controller? And how to mount in a housing--well i guess there is no problem that money can't fix....but is it all functional and worth the $$--again i am only using Nikon and PL glass

 

[Amund Lie]

Ross;
I still haven't got mine yet! Expecting it within the next couple of weeks. I'll let you know as soon as I have tried it out.

 

[Amund Lie]

you have a Birger then with controls made for your AV housing? what about the Gates?

My Aquavideo is still with the original controllers, and I need to modify this in some way. I was actually thinking mainly about your choice for topside work, in combination with underwater. The Birger isn't really suited to underwater shots without some type of mechanical connection between the housing and the Empiro controller, which I think could be fairly easy to make. It is after all a big twist and turn know, and (from what I gather) with pushbuttons to switch between focus and aperture. At least for the Aquavideo this could be a route to go. But this I don't know for sure, and will have to test. Mike Hastings probably has some ideas here. Mike?

I daren't modify the Gates! For this I will continue to use geared controls, no need to change this setup. But are you saying the Gates bulkhead is in the way for all gears on manual still lenses? Need I get those gears from Optitek for Canons also?

I am considering the Birger for the following reasons:
A. I need a wide range of focal lenghts for topside work, from extreme wide to 300 - 600mm tele. Some of the primes must be fast, 1.4 or better. Also I need a good macro lens for underwater use. Doing this with cine lenses will set me back at least $200.000!
B. I currently do not own any PL mount lenses, except for the Duclos which I am still waiting for (I might sell it or rent out on a permanent basis if I go the Birger route)
C. I have access to a good set of manual Canon lenses, and some Zeiss primes originally made for Contax but fitted with a Canon adapter. Hopefully these will work with the Birger (only manual control of course). New Canons with AF and stabilizer are aplenty and inexpensive.
D. Canon lenses focus the "right" way, i.e. same direction as cine lenses. Nikons do not. Small point, but important to some.
E. I would like to be able to control the lenses remotely, and Birger with Empiro will allow me to do this. This is for topside work and some UW, typically crane shots with the Aquavideo in and out of the water. Also river/waves (white water) shooting where I need to have both hands on the camera handles and a camera assistant focuses from boat/shore.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Actually you can more "easily" get a shot of a seal attacking/eating a shark. To my knowledge such shots do not exist.

I spent months diving with seals and sharks do not seem to come close to the reef because they would just easily be game themselves in shallow waters. They hunt in the open ocean where they have more advantage. And filming in the open ocean is like looking for a needle in a hay stack just to find a shark let alone both shark and a seal in the same place at the same time.

Having said that, after researching the sequence for about 7 years, I think I finally worked out how to get maybe 1% of chance to film it. The cost? As usual: $3k-$5k per day for maybe 3- 4 months. Life insurance extra. :biggrin:

I am planning to try filming similar sequence early next year. Wanna come along to help attracting the sharks? :smilewinkgrin:

LMAO... I love your can-do attitude, Pawel! :thumbsup:

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

ProLock Features.

ProLock Features.

Let me chime in here.
There are two major advantages having the ProLock mount that other alternatives don't offer:
1. PL style locking mechanism that mounts lenses solid and secure on the camera. Not knocking at anyone else but the traditional Nikon mount was never intended to mount lenses so they could be focused, zoomed, etc. during image aquisition. No matter how well made it will always wiggle and shift. The feeedback I'm getting is that Nikon lenses that exhibited severe image shift on other mounts now looks solid and stable mounted on ProLock. The back focus issues related to vibration on heli or boats are gone as well.
2. Iris control on G- lenses with a gear ring and calibrated scale.
Now you can buy or rent a still lens and with no modifications what soever and no warranty issues(on Nikon side) use it on RedOne out of the box. You get traditional iris control with or without optional gear. The engraved scale is easily calibrated for individual lenses so you have a pretty accurate f-stop reading on G-lenses. Again- no other mounting options offers these features.
I might add that the backfocus change switching mounts is minimal if any-in most cases you don't need to readjust the BF setting on RedOne.
I hope that explains the main points of ProLock
For more info Check the ProLock page and the videos on the bottom:
http://optitek.org/nikon-prolock.php

 

[Amund Lie]

Jacek,

How much does the mount cost, and what is the current delivery time?
Does the VR function on those lenses work?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Price and delivery

Price and delivery

Jacek,

How much does the mount cost, and what is the current delivery time?
Does the VR function on those lenses work?

The mount costs $750 and is available now.
In the current form is strictly mechanical but we are working on electronic interface that will be offered as a ProLock upgrade in near future. The upgrade will activate the Silent Wave Motors in the newer Nikon lenses and allow for focus, iris control (electronic-mechanical iris control is already there) and VR operation for lenses equipped with it.