IBC '09? There's a new Canon camera to be announced soon (Canon source)

[David Rasberry]

DSMC and the modular concept came out of feedback wishlists from RED forum participants, both RED 1 users and others, who kept asking for features that couldn't realistically be built into a single configuration camera. Ergo the build it your way approach. Didn't have anything to do with what Canon was up to. It was RED's own market feedback.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Here's my take on the historical events:

In the DSLR world, video was a natural progression of Live View. Live View was already common in P&S cameras but was not available on DSLRs because of the mirror and the sensor was only "on" when you took a picture. Olympus was the first one with Live View in a DSLR when they introduced the E-330 in 2006. Then in August of 2007, Canon put Live View in the EOS-40D and Nikon put it the D3 and D300. Finally, one year later in August 2008, Nikon introduced 720P video on the D90 with Canon introduced 1080P video on the 5DMkII.

Video and Live View were natural advances in DSLRs because (1) they were normal features in non-DSLR cameras and camera manufacturers wanted to (among other things) lure step-up buyers to the more profitable DSLR market and (2) the AP, Reuters and other news agencies wanted their photographers to be able to shoot web video as well.

Personally, I don't think Canon was sitting on this technology. It probably took a lot of development to just do it and then to produce it on a mass scale. There are a lot of issues to overcome: read out speed, heat, power consumption, associated circuitry and processors and this camera needed to boot up in less than a second. All of this needs to be designed, packaged and tested to be reliable enough for mass production. You only have so much time for design before it gets frozen and then sent to manufacturing. So if you can't get the feature in this time, it has to wait until the next product. It might sound like they're screwing you for doing this, but if they don't get products to market, their competitors will and take your market share.

On the RED side of things, Scarlet was announced at NAB 2008 and it looked more less like a small camcorder at that time. Later that year when the D90 and 5DMkII appeared, Jim introduced the DMSC with this thread: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18273&

and then I think Scarlet/Epic changed into the brain concept. Based on the DMSC thread, it seems RED was responding to the changes happening on the still camera side. Canon and Nikon were responding to normal competitive pressures in their own still camera market.

THANK YOU! for an intelligent assessment.

I love my RED and will upgrade to epic and continue to root for Jim and the RED team. But so much of this talk is nonsense. As you say video/DSLRs was a natural progression and the specific timing of the 5DMII with video was a response to Nikon and probably nothing to do with RED. RED, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, are all players in this market and only time will tell how things shake out.

I hope somebody just keeps quoting your post on every page to keep reminding them of what really happened.

BTW RAW Bayer sensor readout/storage was a working concept well before RED and a natural progression of increasing flash memory size and processing capability. And VDSLRs will naturally progress to a compressed RAW (and ultimately full raw when processors and storage catch up a few years from now.) RED saw it early and it was a brilliant way of finding the sweet spot of recording high quality/high res video so I think it gives them a good headstart that will carry them through another couple of years on the highend. But the mid and low end will require them to become very good at things like ASICs, Autofocus lenses, image stabilization, mass production, etc. (like maybe even market segmentation.)

BTW The REAL video/digital still competition for scarlet will probably come from the non-SLR type cameras either with interchangeable lenses like the mini 4/3rds or fixed lens with nice wide range zooms. THIS COMPETITION HAS JUST STARTED.


AS an early adopter, and since RED is the only American company on that list, I will always give them the first and second look - but they have their work cut out for them.

 

[DaveT]

DSMC and the modular concept came out of feedback wishlists from RED forum participants, both RED 1 users and others, who kept asking for features that couldn't realistically be built into a single configuration camera. Ergo the build it your way approach. Didn't have anything to do with what Canon was up to. It was RED's own market feedback.

Damn straight. I've got a list of the posts if you newbies want a look.

Also 'convergence' was a hot topic over at Scaletuser long before Canon and others decided to 'get into the game.'

http://scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=22

 

[Tim Le]

Thanks Michael.

BTW The REAL video/digital still competition for scarlet will probably come from the non-SLR type cameras either with interchangeable lenses like the mini 4/3rds or fixed lens with nice wide range zooms. THIS COMPETITION HAS JUST STARTED.

You're right about this new market segment (the area between compact cameras and DSLRs, specifically mirrorless large sensor cameras with interchangeble or fixed lenses). Products from Panasonic and Olympus in this category have really started to move the industry and now the big guys are starting to take notice. Everyone will put video in these cameras.

Here's an interesting article where Sony hints that they want to enter this market and if they did, they "will do it much better." http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...geable_camera_system_news_288858.html?aff=rss

Also interesting is this article where Sony considers Live View and Video to be entry level features in their Alpha DSLRs: http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...n_entrylevel_feature_news_288932.html?aff=rss

Not sure if they really believe that or they're just afraid of releasing the genie of the bottle that could destroy some of their video camera sales. The problem is if they don't do it, Canon and Nikon will. Also interesting how they mention that they just can't compete with Canon and Nikon in the professional still camera market:

Salmon-Legagneur was quick to dismiss the possibility of Sony moving into the professional DSLR sector, explaining that 'Canon and Nikon [have been] occupying that territory for almost 100 years now'. He went on to say that 'they are so strong in this market that it makes no sense to fight frontally [against them]'. He added 'we don't compare ourselves to those brands in the professional field'. However, he stressed, the Sony A900 is used by professional photographers that 'get better quality than [competitive DSLRs] in studio shooting, landscape and wedding photography'.

 

[Scholastique]

I spoke with a camera video retailer yesterday. He said entry-level professionnal camcorder are hard to sell today.... And customers like Canon 5D MKII instead of Canon XL-H1 (or others)...

He reserved 100 Canon 7D ! And all kinds of accessories...


The first company to have a professionnal camcorder with APSC-C sensor and
optical intercheangeable and SDI connectors for 3500 $ will brake the professional market and Canon knows that fact...


So, the big surprise is coming....:tongue_smilie:

 

[Vince Doran]

I personally am over the "only RED can do this" theory,... get over it, other manufactures are on the way and can/will/maybe be better than a RED at a realistic price.

 

[Noah Kadner]

I spoke with a camera video retailer yesterday. He said entry-level professionnal camcorder are hard to sell today.... And customers like Canon 5D MKII instead of Canon XL-H1 (or others)...

He reserved 100 Canon 7D ! And all kinds of accessories...


The first company to have a professionnal camcorder with APSC-C sensor and
optical intercheangeable and SDI connectors for 3500 $ will brake the professional market and Canon knows that fact...


So, the big surprise is coming....:tongue_smilie:

I'd agree that as far as the 'prosumer camcorder market' goes, Canon's DSLR division has a far brighter future than its video camera dept.

Noah

 

[Eki Halkka]

where (codec) do you include the 24p conversion from 5d2 30p??

Luckily i've only had to work with 5DmkII's h264 30p footage in a real production once, for a PAL TV documentary: in that case, i converted the 30p footage to truly losslessly compressed standard definition 25p HUFFYUV avi for editing.

what hardware is capable to edit/cc/grade h264 smoothly?

Smoothly is a relative term - but on my workstation h264 is doable, albeit barely.

Yet.. why not upsampled to 2k for mixing w/ the elite's redcode?.. ehehehehe or anamorphic footage etc

I really don' get what you mean by this.

btw.. halsu is my hv20 forums poster :attention9ha:

I've made my living in this field for 20 years, working in television commercials, documentaries, drama series, feature films, music videos and the like. I've worked on projects shot with 35mm, 16mm, Dalsa Origin, Red One, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM HD/EX, and of course more or less all the standard definition formats from DigiBeta to MiniDV. And yes, i've done a lot of real productions with HDV gear too, some even with my small HV20 when applicable.

Are you saying posting to a camcorder forum makes me somehow unqualified, or unprofessional, or, even laughable?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Personally, I don't think Canon was sitting on this technology.

This is indeed a nice and intelligent comment. Still, I wonder to which extent Canon and Nikon have followed the same ideology as companies (including Canon) making and selling inkjet printers: To maximize the profit the ink cartridges are ridiculously small and as a consequence the consumer's cost per liter or kilogram is much higher than rare raw materials.

From anybody's else point of view such a minimized ink cartridge contents does not make sense at all. They just generate waste into the world having too much waste already. Sometimes I've wondered whether these ink cartridges will be nominated in the future as the best examples of stupidity generated by the greedy century. In this sense wonder whether the marginally improved cameras one after another are also signs of the same policy.

 

[David Rasberry]

BTW The REAL video/digital still competition for scarlet will probably come from the non-SLR type cameras either with interchangeable lenses like the mini 4/3rds or fixed lens with nice wide range zooms. THIS COMPETITION HAS JUST STARTED.

I agree. Don't overlook Panasonic and micro 4/3 format. It would make a great digital cinema camera format.
I hope that RED will eventually license and support 4/3 mounts for S35 and FF35 at least if not make a micro 4/3 brain. 4/3 format and lenses would cover 3k on the S35 and FF35 sensors for better HD quality than shooting 2k. Since it is supposedly an open standard there would be no legal problems incorporating electronic lens controls to work with any of the aftermarket 4/3 format lenses.

 

[Tim Le]

Still, I wonder to which extent Canon and Nikon have followed the same ideology as companies (including Canon) making and selling inkjet printers: To maximize the profit the ink cartridges are ridiculously small and as a consequence the consumer's cost per liter or kilogram is much higher than rare raw materials.

From anybody's else point of view such a minimized ink cartridge contents does not make sense at all. They just generate waste into the world having too much waste already. Sometimes I've wondered whether these ink cartridges will be nominated in the future as the best examples of stupidity generated by the greedy century. In this sense wonder whether the marginally improved cameras one after another are also signs of the same policy.

I agree, it bothers me that we make so much stuff that eventually gets junked, especially with technology products. I wish we would go back to the old days when things were made to last and the economy wasn't so dependent on consumer spending (here in the U.S. this accounts for about 2/3 of the economy--which just seems unsustainable to me). The root cause is our society. We just keep buying too much stuff. We keep buying new cars, new homes, new cell phones and new toys and even the government encourages you to do so. The manufacturers just respond to the market in order to survive. The companies won't change unless we change. If we bought less stuff maybe they would change.

But it's going to be hard because technology changes so fast and it's easy to get tempted by these fancy new features. I like technology just like the rest of us here and am often tempted, but I try to not upgrade that often, mostly for financial reasons. I still have an HV10 and I have resisted buying a DSLR all these years even though I have nice lenses from my EOS-3. I think cameras aren't as bad because you can resist upgrading. You don't have to upgrade. The inkjet business model is worse because you have no choice but to get more ink. But even then we can see how the free market eventually addresses these inefficiencies by starting new businesses that allow you to fill your own cartridges.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

But it's going to be hard because technology changes so fast

Tim, I like your analytic reasoning. Cameras definitely aren't the worst examples, but I think all this malicious pleasure against the traditional players reveal that too many users subconciously felt they've been primarily treated as sources of money. But, as you say, free markets indeed addresses the inefficiencies. Jim recognized that camera manufactures did not quite see what was going on. In my eyes, thw wisdom behind Red is not just the cameras, but as much how the users are treated in a new way. Obviously, some people expect too much and we hear complains despite the first class service. But it's there, and personally I wellcome that the Red One accessories won't turn immediately into junk when Epic-X arrives. Another small but nice issue is that the boxes in which the equipment arrive are not fancy but plain boxes that can be easily recycled.

 

[Roberto B]

I've made my living in this field for 20 years, working in television commercials, documentaries, drama series, feature films, music videos and the like. I've worked on projects shot with 35mm, 16mm, Dalsa Origin, Red One, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM HD/EX, and of course more or less all the standard definition formats from DigiBeta to MiniDV. And yes, i've done a lot of real productions with HDV gear too, some even with my small HV20 when applicable.

Are you saying posting to a camcorder forum makes me somehow unqualified, or unprofessional, or, even laughable?

no man.. you lost the point.. we the whole gang are really admirers of your indy free posts wherever they are.. just a few posters have this privilege (loved your reply btw)

 

[Roberto B]

I really don' get what you mean by this.

probably you dunno but iscorama is the new hype..

people want to shoot in anamorphic
unsqueeze and edit in higher than 2k
2k output

how can native h.264 be a solution?

 

[Eki Halkka]

your indy free posts

Again, i have no idea what you're talking about here...

people want to shoot in anamorphic
unsqueeze and edit in higher than 2k
2k output

how can native h.264 be a solution?

I still don't get your point. At all.

How would making a Cineform/Prores copy, which further deteriorates the already poor quality h264 somehow make things better?

 

[Nova Invicta]

Tim Le
Your explaination of Olympus, Canon & Nikon from live-view (done with Panasonic) through to video (I believe Panasonic announced a camera prior to Nikon & Canon actually putting cameras into the market) is the correct one natural progression on the digital still market after all consumer video cameras with still have been around for a while.
The fact that Red has adjusted to what Nikon & Canon have done makes this point clear as I have stated previously when Canon launched the 5D MKII at Photokina 2008 they clearly stated it was aimed at professional wedding photographers not cinematographers the latter with young directors jumped on the possibilities it could offer. Far from Canon going after Red the reverse maybe true.

 

[Roberto B]

Again, i have no idea what you're talking about here...

hadn't you noticed before? :biggrin5:

 

[Roberto B]

How would making a Cineform/Prores copy, which further deteriorates the already poor quality h264 somehow make things better?

the point is not to make the things better.. just not worst.

when you go w/ an iscorama you'll get a different resolution.. you can edit somewhere between 2k & 3k.. the point is to end w/ a 2k output.. not h.264 1080p

 

[Eki Halkka]

the point is not to make the things better.. just not worst.

Well, that's exactly why i suggested processing the files native, or using an uncompressed/losslessly compressed intermediate instead of cineform or prores, which are both lossy compression schemes. Using either one of those two WILL make things worse, which was the whole point all along.

 

[Roberto B]

or using a losslessly compressed intermediate instead of cineform or prores

as for example?

don't forget we're talking about somewhere between 2k & 3k editing/CC/grading.. 2k output.