The Public Enemies Look

[Rakesh Jacob]

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
It's like a Quiet Riot concert up in this biotch!!! The power of Michael Mann knows no bounds...

 

[Jason Murphy]

HOLY F-ING SH!T you are right, I NEVER looked at it like that. I totaly missed that aspect, GOD I'm so stupid.....ugh and lazy

Hey I found this awesome site it's called youtube... AMAZING!!!!
Unbelievable work with the latest cutting edge film production techniques of smartphone cameras and brilliant... BRILLIANT bumb fighting. The coreography alone much less the camcorder work... WHAT?!!!!!

Once again Thnx for pointing that out, I never realized what I thought was bad looking video was f--king badass ART!

(at least you expected that response, just thought I'd oblige)

Fair enough; I guess I asked for that.

That said, Youtube's a whole different beast; while there is some interesting stuff up on there, the same questions I asked before need to be asked of work that goes up on Youtube. Basically, this: can the problematic video look be explained by the filmmaker being inept? My guess is that in 99% of cases of this sort of video posted on Youtube, the answer is a very safe yes. Also, most of the people posting on Youtube don't have access to 35mm, 16mm, RED, Sony F23's or otherwise, so while they may be intentional about shooting video, it's usually more often than not the only thing they had available.

Of course, it would be a mistake to think that one couldn't glean some valuable artistic knowledge from Youtube videos (often, though not always, of the negative variety, as in a huge list of things NOT to do), but there admittedly is a pretty low signal to noise ratio in that respect.

It should be said, though it probably doesn't need to be, that just because something looks "bad," that doesn't make it good art. Ditto just because something looks "good," though it's safe to say that, at least speaking for the cinematography, that usually this implies a higher level of care taken in the craft.

Have a great 4th weekend, everyone. I might post some more after I've actually seen Public Enemies, no doubt to say that the crappy video cinematography wrecked the movie or somesuch.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

So why did he shoot his previous two digital movies mostly on the Thomson Viper if he is surrounded by "Sony Boys"?

This is something that people don't seem to get about Mann -- he doesn't like to shoot LOG or RAW, he likes to shoot Rec 709 and color-correct on set for the final look using video monitor gamma. So odds are low that he would use the RED camera since the whole RAW approach isn't the way he likes to shoot video. He isn't interested in a film look, he wants to shoot "broadcast video" style. He didn't use the Viper's filmstream LOG feature and he didn't use Sony's S-Log format either, so he isn't necessarily going to be excited about Red's RAW system either. HE'S NOT INTERESTED IN MAKING A DIGITAL CAMERA BEHAVE LIKE A FILM CAMERA. HE'S NOT INTERESTED IN A FILM LOOK. HE'S NOT INTERESTED IN HIDING THE ELECTRONIC ORIGINATION OF THE IMAGE. HE'S NOT INTERESTED IN 35MM DEPTH OF FIELD. Get it? It's got nothing to do with being "duped" by Sony people. He knows what he wants and he knows how to get what he wants, nobody is forcing him to do anything. What friggin' evidence do you have that Sony "trapped and surrounded him"??? How do you know that? Why are you so sure he didn't choose this approach himself? Do you really think Mann is such a weak-willed person that he just follows the advice of others?

Nice to see such well thought out opinions.

Guys,

you say whatever you want but I'll give you a bit more info about what I said concerning "Sony Boys Influence".

Even dough I still didn't see the movie in theatre, I just saw the trailer, must say that I like the look and I would like

to repeat again that the movie could be done on RED1 but it is not just because...

Also I'm not Dillinger that robbed the banks, I'm more Dillinger that robbed the information.

So give you now some fresh (stolen) info from brand new issue of American Cinematographer July 2009

about Public Enemies from the article "Big Guns" by Jay Holben, pages 26-35.

After reading this excerpts you should then conclude yourself what ever you want BUT still keep in mind what I said about "Sony Boys"....


About Sony cameras 1:

About Sony cameras 2:

I like very much use of handheld in Michael Mann movies (also could be done on RED1 because I'm a fan of experimenting RED handheld):

And the end of the article is the best part of the text:

One more thing:

I'm famous here because of my "extreme" pushing RED on this forum and according that there is one nice article about using RED1:

"Shooting Puppy Love With the Red One" by Iain Stasukevich where is described how

cinematographer Jendra Jarnagin, a member of this forum, explains her shooting experience with RED1 (pages 12-14)

The full texts find here>>>

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

Hey Jason I was just giving you a hard time. I really dig a lot of things about Public Enemies, I especially appreciate the fact that he left out Flava Flav's character... sorry that's Public Enemy with a "y"-
Seriously it was a really good movie in a lot of aspects. BUT there are a lot of really good, enjoyable and even brilliant low budget/no budget movies that look like crap because the money and/or experience and/or skill level isn't there... this is not supposed to be one of them. The hyper-realistic, sharp look that he supposedly went for to, I imagine, immerse the audience in a new and exciting way to experience a period piece? DUDE it didn't work out that way for me and obviously a lot of people. And there are plenty of people on this forum that UNDERSTAND the medium and realize what he attempted and are dissapointed with the outcome. Are we not allowed to have feelings and reactions about MM movies unless it's completely and apoligetically positive. I personally am trying to figure out HOW THE F--- do you take something shot with a F23 or even an EX1 and make it look like it came out of a VX2100 or XL1 (on SOME shots, there's obviously good looking stuff in there as well). Some of those shots look like 28 Days Later. I havn't seen 28 Days is a long while and maybe it's not that close at all but the sheer fact that visually that's the only movie that comes to mind from my memory as a frame of reference...

 

[Steve G]

After reading this excerpts you should then conclude yourself what ever you want BUT still keep in mind what I said about "Sony Boys".... Sanjin Jukic

Read the articles and still not sure what you meant by your original inflammatory statements...

Also it's a pity that MM was "trapped and surrounded" with "Sony Boys" agents (informants) who recommend him "Sony Bloody Digital HD Technology" that can't compare with RED1 at ALL !!!

Who knows maybe HE (MM) in his next feature will do (finally) his own digital research... choose RED1 ... or he is (dead) as a good movie director anyway... Sanjin Jukic

As David said, Michael Mann shot his last 2 digital films mostly with the Viper. Hardly a man quaking in his boots at the feet of "Sony Boys" ?

We have all these great tools at our hands made by Sony, Panasonic, Red, Arri, Aaton, Panavision etc which we make choices to use, from both creative and financial perspectives.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Saw it last night, projected on film. Loved the story, but didn't really like the look much. At the end of the movie, my wife asked me "Why did it look so bad?"

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

I JUST HAD AN EPIPHANY!!!
And sorry if some one else has already had this revelation and made this observation but I feel compelled to share it.

Michael Mann IS the EXACT OPPOSITE of Michael Bay.... WHOA I think I just blew my own mind!
(btw I almost typed "I think I just blew my self" LOL)

 

[Steven Caesare]

I wonder if other artists pooh-poohed Van Gogh for using water colors for a specific project, rather than oils.

You know, because water colors have lest contrast ratio, a more subdued pallette, can have uneven coverage, may be less saturated, etc...

Oh. Wait. Maybe that's exactly what Van Gogh had in mind for a specific subject.

Never mind, stupid question.

-Steve

 

[Steve G]

Who knows maybe HE (MM) in his next feature will do (finally) his own digital research... choose RED1 ... or he is (dead) as a good movie director anyway... Sanjin Jukic

Saying that a director will suffer for not shooting with the Red is unbelievably ridiculous. Takes Red fanboy behaviour to a new and extreme level. Red is just a tool, a camera, with quirks and issues like all of them out there.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Read the articles and still not sure what you meant by your original inflammatory statements...



As David said, Michael Mann shot his last 2 digital films mostly with the Viper. Hardly a man quaking in his boots at the feet of "Sony Boys" ?

We have all these great tools at our hands made by Sony, Panasonic, Red, Arri, Aaton, Panavision etc which we make choices to use, from both creative and financial perspectives.

Steve,

terribly sorry but you are still not GETTING the point!!!!

First: Of course that I know well that he shot the last two movies before PE on Viper.

My DVD collection of MM movies

Second: MM is well known guy who is always "digging" different looks in his movies and the last happened to be shot DIGITAL.

Third: And SUDDENLY his last film shot partly digital and that happened all by SONY digital cameras.

Four: Nothing happens and nothing is thinkable without a cause.

Five: It's about to think that CAUSE now (to choose SONY cameras instead of any other)

Six: Quote>>>"Just prior to
Public Enemies, Spinotti and Mann
shot a commercial on HD using
Sony’s CineAlta F23, a 2⁄3" 3-CCD
1920x1080 camera that records 4:4:4
RGB or 4:2:2 Y/Cb/Cr to HDCam-
SR tape. (The camera has a 2⁄3" bayonet
lens mount, and the SRW-1 deck
can be mounted directly to the
camera, like a film magazine.)
“Michael likes images to be sharp,
and he likes shooting with smaller
chips because he likes the deep depth
of field, so we became fans of the F23
on that commercial,” says Spinotti.
American Cinematographer 0709, page 25"

Quote link>>>

This sounds like a big joke at the time when RED shoots on CF cards, HDD RAID, etc,... @ 4K, 3K, 2K, can be resized in any HD format and can get any of 2/3" lens via B4 mount, etc,...

Seven: Sony Boys won. Why? Don't ask that stupid question any more!!!! :cornut:

 

[Steve G]

Sanjin, what the hell are you on ? Just because he used Sony doesn't mean that he had pressure put on him by Sony. Do you really believe that arri, panavision, red, sony and panasonic pressure directors to use their kit ? You are deluded.

Third: And SUDDENLY his last film shot partly digital and that happened all by SONY digital cameras.

So what ? Stephen Soderberg used Red on his last feature. Did Red force him to use their camera ? Of course not.

Ultimately, your conspiracy theories are amusing.

Quote:
Who knows maybe HE (MM) in his next feature will do (finally) his own digital research... choose RED1 ... or he is (dead) as a good movie director anyway... Sanjin Jukic

I repeat, saying that a director will suffer for not shooting with the Red is unbelievably ridiculous. Takes Red fanboy behaviour to a new and extreme level. Red is just a tool, a camera, with quirks and issues like all of them out there.
__________________

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, what the hell are you on ? Just because he used Sony doesn't mean that he had pressure put on him by Sony. Do you really believe that arri, panavision, red, sony and panasonic pressure directors to use their kit ? You are deluded.

So what ? Stephen Soderberg used Red on his last feature. Did Red force him to use their camera ? Of course not.

Ultimately, your conspiracy theories are amusing.



I repeat, saying that a director will suffer for not shooting with the Red is unbelievably ridiculous. Takes Red fanboy behaviour to a new and extreme level. Red is just a tool, a camera, with quirks and issues like all of them out there.
__________________

Steve,

like it not but sort of "conspiracy theory and practice" exists in our industry as the same as in other fields of our life...

Again don't be so naive and believe in a freedom to decide but without influence that actually in praxis is just an opposite (freedom to decide with a certain influence) that exists everywhere...

Recently about that "phenomena" Jim Jannard was writting at the tread titled "RED trashing..."

at CML - Cinematography Information & Discussion Forum>>>"High resolution non realtime - Dalsa Origin - Red - SI - Phantom">>>

LINK>>>

 

[Baltazar Balta]

Steve,

terribly sorry but you are still not GETTING the point!!!!

First: Of course that I know well that he shot the last two movies before PE on Viper.

My DVD collection of MM movies

Second: MM is well known guy who is always "digging" different looks in his movies and the last happened to be shot DIGITAL.
on that commercial,” says Spinotti.
American Cinematographer 0709, page 25"[/COLOR][/I]

Quote link>>>

This sounds like a big joke at the time when RED shoots on CF cards, HDD RAID, etc,... @ 4K, 3K, 2K, can be resized in any HD format and can get any of 2/3" lens via B4 mount, etc,...

Seven: Sony Boys won. Why? Don't ask that stupid question any more!!!! :cornut:

Mr. Jukic,

There is nothing stupid in Mr. Mullen's and Mr. Gray's statements. Your implication about Public Enemies(she is bad because she was not shot on RED1) is preposterous.

Of course nothing happens without a cause but you like wine and I like cherry juice. Michael Mann liked what he got from Sony camera and shot his film with that camera. The article say that he and his dp made some tests before shooting. I don't think a well-established director like him could be forced to do anthing he didn't want to.

Creating conspiracy theories out of some fanboyish thoughts is not useful critique.

P.S Excuse my English, please.

With regards,
Baltazar

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Mr. Jukic,

There is nothing stupid in Mr. Mullen's and Mr. Gray's statements. Your implication about Public Enemies(she is bad because she was not shot on RED1) is preposterous.

Of course nothing happens without a cause but you like wine and I like cherry juice. Michael Mann liked what he got from Sony camera and shot his film with that camera. The article say that he and his dp made some tests before shooting. I don't think a well-established director like him could be forced to do anthing he didn't want to.

Creating conspiracy theories out of some fanboyish thoughts is not useful critique.

P.S Excuse my English, please.

With regards,
Baltazar

Baltazar,

just read again my replay above of yours...

Again nothing here about RED1 FUNBOYISH it's more about SONY BOYISH if ever you can get it...

In our industry doesn't exist sort of "rude" pressure, it's more about a soft or underneath sort of doing things where UNDER is related especially as to be hidden...

Hope this helps...

 

[Steve G]

Sanjin, as others have said, Michael Mann is a director who would never be pressurised into using a format that he didn't want. It clearly was his choice to use the sony cameras.

Recently about that "phenomena" Jim Jannard was writting at the tread titled "RED trashing..."

at CML - Cinematography Information & Discussion Forum>>>"High resolution non realtime - Dalsa Origin - Red - SI - Phantom">>>

Not sure what your point is. Jim said on that forum, as you know, that he has to let the red stand on it's own merits.

You seem to spend a lot of time doing tests with your Red and your still lenses. Those are quite interesting to see. Others on this forum, like myself, use the Red and all the other hi def and film cameras that are out there to actually shoot stuff for broadcast/cinema release. I, and I suspect others are getting a sense of the reds weaknesses and strengths. No camera is perfect. Paranoid ramblings like yours insinuating that the Red is the only camera that people should shoot things on are frankly ridiculous and probably ultimately damaging to the Red cause.

 

[Andrew Wilding]

This is reminding me of the Macgregor SC250 post. Sanjin must be off the medications.

 

[Tom Lowe]

From the AC article:

"The EX1 was especially great for car interiors..."

I don't think so! Those interior shots looked god awful with the blown-out windows and banding.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Sanjin is always quoting Godard -- what would Godard say about using obvious video artifacts and a lack of visual consistency, about making filmmaking techniques more obvious rather than hidden and invisible, about breaking the audience's concentration of the narrative, etc.? I recall an essay by Godard where he talks about the inherent draw of narrative, the willing suspension of disbelief, and how that should be disrupted to remind the viewer that they are watching a recreated event.

 

[Steve G]

Baltazar,

just read again my replay above of yours...

Again nothing here about RED1 FUNBOYISH it's more about SONY BOYISH if ever you can get it...

In our industry doesn't exist sort of "rude" pressure, it's more about a soft or underneath sort of doing things where UNDER is related especially as to be hidden...

Hope this helps...

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

[Steve G]

Sanjin, whatever it is that you are on, please let us know.