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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RPP Rental Rates

lens prices

lens prices

i suspect that the same thing will happen to lens prices that happened to camera rentals.
Red camera at the higher level are not a cheap venture and requires a huge out
lay of cash, and the returns will shrink.
 
I hope the 18mm comes out soon. I wonder how many are looking into getting a 11-16 PL mounted from Duclos, how many plan to get something else wider than 18 and how many won't get anything wider than 18.
 
I agree and disagree. Lenses will and should hold value unlike cameras. Since these are quality lenses that can be used on 4K, 5K and 35mm cameras, they should retain value...like the old Superspeeds have at $65/lens or $350-375/day for so many years. I think lens prices for sale will definitely come down to compete but lens rentals should remain the same or at a similar pricepoint that it has for years...

red and blue monkey said:
i suspect that the same thing will happen to lens prices that happened to camera rentals.
Red camera at the higher level are not a cheap venture and requires a huge out
lay of cash, and the returns will shrink.
Click to expand...
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
I hope the 18mm comes out soon. I wonder how many are looking into getting a 11-16 PL mounted from Duclos, how many plan to get something else wider than 18 and how many won't get anything wider than 18.
Click to expand...


What 11-16 Standard Speed are you guys talking about?

I see nothing but Cookes and Nikons on Duclos site
 
red and blue monkey said:
i suspect that the same thing will happen to lens prices that happened to camera rentals.
Red camera at the higher level are not a cheap venture and requires a huge out
lay of cash, and the returns will shrink.
Click to expand...

I think in the end you're completely correct. Abel and other professional rental houses rent RED Ones and do so in proper, complete packages at somewhat standardized rates. There can be some discounting but that happens on any equipment depending on the job and the client. The pro RED one rental kits are all generally around $1200/day book rate, yet we all hear of the guy who is willing to send out his RED for $400/day and come along as the Tech. And yet all our cameras are in high demand and we just added some more. Why? Because a real production will never wish to go with an unknown quantity. They know that we have complete packages and do extensive quality checks on the prep for every rental. Our gear is maintained because we have the tools, the knowledge and the inclination to properly maintain them. It is worth it to them to pay substantially more in order to receive this.

The same will hold true for lenses. Maintenance on optics and the mechanics within is no small affair. We have the collimators and projectors. We know how to shim a lens accurate to within a few microns. Again, professional clients will pay extra to be able to seep at night knowing this.

Nothing against the entreprenurial spirit out there and there are certainly plenty of pro guys out there who own their own gear and rent it out to professional clients as well. Here in New York, this board's own Harry Clark is a good example (Harry, I hope you do mind me mentioning this). But he has a large client base built up over years and he generally does not dry hire his gear out to productions with which he is not involved.

Go ahead and cut off your noses in spite of your faces if you must, but realize that the major rental houses will generally always beat you in this game. If someone is coming to you because you have the cheapest price, then think about what type of client that may be, what sort of crew they may employ and how they may treat your precious equipment.
 
You said it Mitch. When I'm on a shoot that rents out from Abel or Keslow, Alternative, Claremont, Birns or any of the better rental houses in LA, I know I can return equipment that I find is not up to standard, check lenses and have them adjusted or collimated if they're not matching witness marks, and thoroughly check and replace any piece of gear, get backup cables, etc.

When I get on a shoot where they want to rent from a private owner to save a buck, I kind of groan inside because I know that the gear comes "as-is". They don't have any backups, no way to collimate the day of checkout, and not even a proper check out area. They drop it off or expect you to be out of their hair in two hours and often rush you, and that's not a proper way to go out on a shoot. While I understand that saving a buck is important, it often does not pay off when crap starts to break down in the middle of a shoot.

That said, there are private DP owners who take very good care of their gear and can vouch for the integrity of it all. But I doubt those DP's are bottom feeders.
 
There are also very talented DPs with proper packages that are still working on fattening up their already strong reels and resumes, but feel they need a bit more to raise their rates. Those guys are golden nuggets for small productions which ma have enough money to do things right but can't afford to do everything they hope to do if they pay full rates. It takes a lot of time and effort to find them, and a good script to get them on board.
 
Considering the RPP's are better then the Superspeeds then you should value them as higher - not at their relative sale price.

If you undercut the superspeeds with a better set of lenses like the RPP's then you essentially damage the market and undervalue the product you hire out.

Some tests have been done that indicate the RPP's are as good as the Cooke S4's and close to the MP's so that's something to think about.
 
Ghandi El-Chamaa said:
Considering the RPP's are better then the Superspeeds then you should value them as higher - not at their relative sale price.

If you undercut the superspeeds with a better set of lenses like the RPP's then you essentially damage the market and undervalue the product you hire out.

Some tests have been done that indicate the RPP's are as good as the Cooke S4's and close to the MP's so that's something to think about.
Click to expand...

Thats entirely subjective..
I personally dont feel they are better.. so then I wouldnt value them higher.
Optically they are sharp as hell and flawless.. but I like things to have character.. and lots of people agree.. so You price rental rates according to how much they cost to buy.. not the quality
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Thats entirely subjective..
I personally dont feel they are better.. so then I wouldnt value them higher.
Optically they are sharp as hell and flawless.. but I like things to have character.. and lots of people agree.. so You price rental rates according to how much they cost to buy.. not the quality
Click to expand...

Yes from a cinematographers point of view yes its subjective but we're talking rental price. They have different qualities and the RPP's qualities hold more value and that's why they're considered better, the supers open to 1.3 so they have an advantage here.

Matthew Duclos said:
Effort,

The Zeiss Super Speeds are great lenses. However....
You could easily sell your set of Super Speeds for almost twice what a set of RED primes costs.
This would allow you to buy the newer, better glass from RED and still have cash left over.
The RED Pro Primes are in fact optically better than the Super Speeds.
They have a much larger image circle that allow for more even illumination.
The lenses are designed for use with a digital sensor, and will still cover the Epic frame when you upgrade.
Click to expand...

If you want to argue with Mr Duclos go ahead.

The thing is that the RED1 is already for hire at the same price as you would a camera half its quality. And what producer worth his salt will not ask for a discount? So you get one of the best cameras on the market for dirt cheap and you're happy but the market suffers for now.

The Red market is quite saturated and the rest can't compete with a lesser product at a more expensive price so they suffer more. When you start talking independents with lenses pricing them at even lower prices then the market during a recession then you're looking at meltdown and we've been through one here and I'm sure there. Tons of rental houses gone or merging to survive. So the market has undergone a serious shakedown and the prices are still set as they are.

If you invent a product you have a right to put it at any price you wish. But if you own it and want to rent it you price it at its market value (google it), don't make it up. Indie rentals have struck a balance - their market (California) is saturated with the RPP's but their quality is high so they price their single RPP at $100 per day and the set for $295 per day while the single superspeed is $60 p/d and the set for $295 p/d. This is California! These are the rock bottom prices for Red, you shouldn't go cheaper as a standard price for dry hire.

Anyway I'm ranting now - I hope I haven't offended anyone, I'm just putting accross my POV as a rental house as well as a writer/director.
 
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Rental rates are determined by many criteria, including market forces. Everybody knows SuperSpeeds, which is not true for RPPs. There is a calculation of how long it will take to pay off the gear to value the investment. It is not just how many rental days as that is simple math. It is a question of how many rental days in a given period one can reasonably expect of the demand. No matter how good a set of RPPs are, they will not have the same demand as a set of SuperSpeeds.
 
Here's a perfect example of what we're talking about...I wanted to rent RPP's for a shoot but the quote came in way higher than this, which is from a national equipment house in Canada:

Zeiss 1.3 primes: 18, 25, 35, 50, 65, 85 for $85 each for the week with the exception of the 18mm which is $95.

That's pretty hard to beat -they're charging $520 for the week including shipping for 6 lenses from Toronto to Winnipeg.

So this is what the small guys are up against.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Rental rates are determined by many criteria, including market forces. Everybody knows SuperSpeeds, which is not true for RPPs. There is a calculation of how long it will take to pay off the gear to value the investment. It is not just how many rental days as that is simple math. It is a question of how many rental days in a given period one can reasonably expect of the demand. No matter how good a set of RPPs are, they will not have the same demand as a set of SuperSpeeds.
Click to expand...

I agree in a way - I would feel more comfortable giving a discount on say a Red with a set of RPP's then a Red with a set of Supers but this should not take away from the 'standard' rental price of that item. I also know that when you purchase a car from a well established manufacturer the new kid on the block won't get a look in. But we're a non-superficial, highly informed market with an eye for a bargain. And the price the RPP's rental price is at a bargain price already considering their quality.

The main reason I posted originally was because I was shocked by people's low rental valuation of what is a fantastic product. Doesn't matter about supply and demand when you value a set of RPP's at $250 per day. You can shoot a big budget feature with these lenses.

I'm gonna test my RPP's against some Cooke S4's.
 
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