Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Karl Gustav H.]

Warning: All what is said below need not to have any connection to the real world or any people or business in reality.

My guess is that there was an unfortunate coincidence after which everybody, i.e., Birger, RED and the customers have found themselves in a bit difficult situation; Namely, when Erik started to seriously design and build the mount he lived in the understanding that the mount is what it was in the first version of R1.

Once RED got feedback from the first 100 users Jim decided to change the mount. But, if I've understood it right (but I may have got it completely wrong, so this is just guessing) RED forgot to tell this to Erik or Erik did not get the message. Erik neither had a camera at that point. It was only (much?) later when Aqua lended his camera to Erik and the message of the change got passed to Birger.

Thereafter Erik made a conclusion it's not possible to make the mount that did not require removing the front end of R1. Again, this is speculation, but as I've understood it, at this point Erik did not realize to discuss with Red about this issue but instead went ahead and designed a new front including the Birger mount.

Only much later Jarred and the others at Red saw the Birger mount, and at that point they reacted as the front end was their limit of (the warranty) border. And, of course, we all understand for a good reason. So, Jarred and the others found themselves "busted" as the customers started to react. Simultaneously Red obviously had to do everything to stop anybody going in this direction in order to protect their rights as a camera manufacturer.



And that's where we are at the moment. But, I emphasize, this is just guessing.

Lauri, just as an aside, there did seem to be some confusion in the community as to where the warranty firewall fell. It was pretty obvious (I'd hope) that opening up the body and exposing the boards was a no-no but there was a message to the effect that the mount was outside the firewall.

I think more than a few people took mount to mean 'mount and collimaitng assembly' rather than the PL mount in the strict meaning of the phrase. I think this is where the erroneous statements from people like IMS came from about the warranty being preserved, when in fact it wasn't.

I'm not blaming anyone here, just trying to do something.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

I think this is just a result of new information coming out of left-field... But CYA, and let the ash settle from the erruption. This is business, and as much as everyone wants to be the good guy, somewhere a line needs to be drawn. You drew it for Birger, and now Erik needs to draw it for us. Whatever it is, we'll all get over it, move on, and make some kick-ass movies on RED cameras with Canon lenses, thanks to the Birger mount [edit: and the ViewFactor 'Knob'].


I think Kurt should consider renaming the Impero to just "Knob". I can only begin to imagine the innuendos that will occur on set as a result.

 

[M Hsu]

Maybe we should wait for a statement from Erik. A lot of people are frustrated and let's not accidentally point it at RED, which will be counterproductive. Let's not give Jared and Jim the impression that we are ungrateful for them taking the time and resources to work with 3rd parties. Especially for a solution that is important to so many of us.

 

[Dominique Grenier]

This is the Key point Kyle...... as you can see, people are already pointing the finger at us for not telling them information that should of come from Erik...and saying its RED's fault for not communicating and stating the policy.. and once again we are taking the Heat.. and nothing has even happened yet...

You can just imagine what will happen down the road when something goes wrong, the same people will point the fingers back at RED.

That is what we are trying to avoid... but maybe its unavoidable...?

I think the starting point of all this mess, is that everybody just assumed what they think was the reality. RED assumed that it was clear for Erik that in order to keep the camera's warranty, the mount had to be installed by Birger. Erik on his side, assumed that the warranty problem was over after meeting with RED. And us, the customers, based on various informations found in the forum, assumed that the situation was fixed. All of this, I am sure, in good faith.

So its like everyone's fault, and no one's fault at the same time.

I am glad I asked a question about the warranty issue, so now we can stop assuming and build things on top of the reality.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Lauri.. your missing the point. #2 is not something RED wants to do or be involved in.....

... and that's perfectly ok with me. And now I'm able to phrase the questions I have in mind.

So Jarred are you able to answer these questions:

1) If I install or get the Birger mount installed and nothing goes wrong, remove it later on, install the original front end back, camera is just ok, is the global warranty valid and do I have an upgrade path to Epic?

2) If something goes wrong in the installation, and I send the camera to service, pay whatever it takes, is the warranty void or not and do I still have an upgrade path to Epic?

If you say "no" to one of these, I'll have to cancel my Birger order.

 

[Erik Widding]

I'm going to go with unavoidable. Birger has this forum thing figured out pretty good they just leave no comment. let 10 pages of comments build up then say something like but we're almost ready to ship.

I am monitoring this thread. I will post as soon as I have something to add to the public conversation. I think any public statements from me would be ill advised, as I need to respect the open dialogue on this topic between the two companies.

For now, I will simply say to my customers, I am committed to work with RED on this topic of warranty, as I feel it is necessary to do so, to ensure that I deliver the product as I have promised.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Is it me, or has this entire thing been about the following:

If you open up your camera beyond the way it's designed. You will void the warrenty.

If your camera works perfectly after you open it up, then I guess you will be ok.

BUT if ANYTHING goes wrong after you open it up.. You are ON YOUR OWN. RED said "buh bye" the second you cracked the case beyond where they meant for you to go. If you think Birger's mount did it.. Ok, but if you are not an expert in installing things, you may not have any luck with Birger either.

Is it me? Or did I just lay out the policy of every piece of electronic equipment we own?

I know there are a few more details, but this is the soul of it. Right?

Jay

Finally You can get ANYTHING fixed at RED that you want to. You just have to pay for it if you void the warrenty, that's all.

 

[Jarred Land]

Good Summation Jay.

And yes.. thats the way every other piece of electronics works Im not sure why we are being put in this situation.

And just like every other piece of electronics, they have Certified repair facilities that are allowed to open up the camera, without voiding the warranty.

 

[M Hsu]

I think we're all fine with the warranty issue, the bigger issue is; for those of us who have installed our birger mounts, if I understand correctly, our upgrade path to EPIC has been canceled even if we've not caused any damage to the camera.

 

[Frank Weeks]

I think you are right Jay. I'm just wondering why the IMS policy seemed so clear (put it on and void the warrantee) while the birger policy was not.

If your camera works perfectly after you open it up, then I guess you will be ok.

I really hope this is right.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

For now, I will simply say to my customers, I am committed to work with RED on this topic of warranty, as I feel it is necessary to do so, to ensure that I deliver the product as I have promised.

Thank you Erik for this comment.

My concern is not if something goes wrong when installing the mount. Instead, the question is, if such a thing happened, is it irreversible? That is, can I pay the RED service to fix damage and return back to the upgrade path?

 

[David Nardini]

Good Summation Jay.

And yes.. thats the way every other piece of electronics works Im not sure why we are being put in this situation.

And just like every other piece of electronics, they have Certified repair facilities that are allowed to open up the camera, without voiding the warranty.

Jarred ... I hope this does not come across as having a dig IT'S NOT !

I totally agree with the above ... if in warranty period or not, if a non RED items stuffs up the R1, the owner &/or 3rd party need to pick up the pieces (ie: pay you to fix the camera).
I personally do not see this being the issue; a R1 can get damaged in more than one way, and like any electronic tool in our kit bag it's BAU.

The key issue, for me, is the upgrade (h/w or Epic etc) ... if the R1 is returned in perfectly working order (with or without any repairs being carried out to the R1 during it's life), why would this jeopardize the upgrade path ? This is the bit I do not understand and would like clarification on.

 

[Joel Kaye]

This is the Key point Kyle...... as you can see, people are already pointing the finger at us for not telling them information that should of come from Erik...

Most of us here are not out to blame RED for anything nor hold them accountable for damage that occurs during a bad install. Some of the comments in this thread haven't been very helpful and it's understandable that you'd naturally become frustrated with the whole situation.

I guess what has some people fairly concerned (me for one) is the idea that if they install a Birger then they lose a chance to upgrade to EPIC. Period. Like that camera is "dead" and essentially worth $17,500 less today than yesterday. That's not reasonable and I don't believe it's the case.

As Jay says in his post anything can be repaired. It seems to me the reasonable position RED would take is that in order for ANY RED to qualify for an EPIC trade in it must be in fully working order as deemed by RED. If not, the customer will be charged for the repairs in addition to the cost of the EPIC upgrade. That covers RED and absolves them of liability. It's my guess Jim would like to see as many RED's upgraded to EPIC as possible.. even ones that arrive a little worse for the wear. This is a good universal policy that covers every possibilty, not just Birger.

RED already has the $500 program for cameras sold used. Surely that would be available to help somehow.

Birger's mount appears to be fully reversible back to factory PL mount state.

It appears what's needed is for Erik to provide some type of certification program and training for installers in addition to an installation reporting protocol that RED approves of.

I worked for a camera shop right after college and repaired hundreds of cameras and I'd sure like to get certified to install the Birger mount.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Creative thinking and a possible solution?

Creative thinking and a possible solution?

Ok guys, I tried to figure out if there's asolution nobody has thought about so far, and this is what came into mind:

What about if one gets first Andy's dumb mount. If I've got it right it does have a connector on the side leading to the connectors of the actual lense. Then if Erik just packed Birger electronics in a small box and made the required cable, as a result we had a mount that did not force anybody to remove the front end but still enabled us to use Curt's knob, the bluethooth link etc.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Jarred,

Common sense is a wonderful thing when used correctly. Let me try one more issue and you can see if I have it:

The upgrade and how the Birger Mount affects it:

When you get your Epic-X you are sending your RED back. Common sense tells me that RED is not taking the cameras back so they can make their very own landfill. They will most likely want to re-sell them, or donate them to schools. So they need them to work.

Now they need to keep costs down, so I'm sure they'd like to avoid using any parts, or spending any additional time on the cameras where ever possible. You open up your camera. Cool. Tell RED and when you send it back they may ask you to cover the time it will take them to make sure you did not damage it. Telling them upfront will allow them to go right to the potential issue areas. This means less time on the bench, and less money from you. OR....Have a certified person do the installation, and there will most likely be no charge as they can be pretty sure it was done right. Or mess with your camera and NOT tell them. You are rolling the dice. If you get double sixes and all is well and the camera works perfectly and RED does not notice, goodie for you. BUT if you roll snake eyes and some is wrong with the camera, AND they find out you opened it up without telling them. they will most likely charge you top dollar to get the camera back to "Warranty status".

RED does not want to spend any additional manpower or part cost because you dove into your camera like you were on an episode of ""Home Improvement"

RED will back their stuff and pay the bill, so long as you don't mess with their stuff. If you do RED will still help you out, and take care of you, but don't ask THEM to pay for it.

Am I right Jarred?

Jay

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Birger Mount is approved by RED

Birger Mount is approved by RED

Jarred ... I hope this does not come across as having a dig IT'S NOT !

I totally agree with the above ... if in warranty period or not, if a non RED items stuff up the R1, the owner &/or 3rd party need to pick up the pieces (ie: pay you to fix the camera).
I personally do not see this being the issue; a R1 can get damaged in more than one way, and like any electronic tool in our kit bag it's BAU.

The key issue, for me, is the upgrade (h/w or Epic etc) ... if the R1 is returned in perfectly working order (with or without any repairs being carried out to the R1 during it's life), why would this jeopardize the upgrade path ? This is the bit I do not understand and would like clarification on.

Originally Posted by Jarred Land
Nope.. Birger mount originally had issues, but we worked with Eric and the Birger mount now is approved by RED. You obviously will need to send the camera back though with the RED PL mount attached, for both the Audio board upgrade plan and the Trade in Program.

Sorry guys, but what has changed since this post on 10-3-08. According to the above the Birger mount NOW is approved by RED. So is it approved or NOT??

I guess I just don't get it, according to this, the Birger Mount is approved by RED and all we have to do is send the camera back to RED with the PL mount attached, FOR BOTH THE AUDIO OR EPIC TRADE IN PROGRAM.

This was on 10-3-08.

I don't have my Birger mount yet but want to be clear on all of this.

Respectfully,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Frazier,

I believe the original post was that, previously, mounting the Birger on the RED One would void the warranty, regardless of whether you broke something or not. This is the state of the IMS. You install it, warranty is void.

As of the 10/3/08 post, I believe the current position to be: If the Birger is installed by an end-user, the liability of any fault during installation or use of the Birger mount, falls on the user, voids the warranty and the upgrade path, and both Birger and RED are clear of any liability. If the mount is installed by Birger or a 'certified agent', then the warranty will remain in tact, though any damages/costs/liability arising from a faulty installation are the responsibility of Birger and/or the certified installer (the nature of this is still to be determined by Erik).

 

[Joe Vinson]

Jarred, it sounds like our previous working assumption (that if we install the Birger mount and something goes wrong, tough luck, but if it works fine, warranty stays intact) is still basically what you're saying. Except that Birger needs to tell you exactly who has a Birger mount. Is that accurate?

And can you give us a definite answer on the warranty/upgrade status of cameras that already have the Birger mount installed before this recent revelation? (There's maybe a couple dozen of us, I think.)

 

[Marcus Struzina]

This is a bit off the track , but it states on RED.com that the Epic will be available with a Canon mount (presumably EF) that includes "power and intelligent lens data interfaces" . I'm guessing this will allow some kind of focus and aperture interface. If the Birger doesn't ship for another, say 3 months due to this new warranty crisis and then perhaps the Red Epic mount ships with the Epic late 2009, the value of going with the Birger is starting to be limited.
I still have a Birger reservation in the first 50, but with all the hassle it might just be simpler to wait and shoot PL and NIkon till then.
I really feel for Eric at Birger, it seems to be a beautiful product in the wrong place and time.

 

[Jarred Land]

And can you give us a definite answer on the warranty/upgrade status of cameras that already have the Birger mount installed before this recent revelation? (There's maybe a couple dozen of us, I think.)

Technically upgrade path opportunity should be canceled as per our warranty policy, but that's not what us at RED would consider fair. We put ourselves in the customer shoes.. and since this last issue is clearly a communication error outside the Customer's hands, It would be pretty weak if RED screwed you guys for it..

OFFICIALLY, from this day prior, we will wipe the slate clean for those customers that did non-certified installs. Just send Brian an email ( upgrades@red.com ) to let him know that you did the upgrade yourself and your upgrade path to EPIC-X will not be affected.

For those of you that have not installed the mount yet, I would hold on till Birger resolves the clerical issues. Its up to him ( and his insurance company) to choose if he wants to accept the liability of certifying every random customer as that install in no way is covered by RED at all... And of course we just need to know the cameras that have the certified install.