Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Frazier Nivens]

Clarification Needed

Clarification Needed

I think I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel... Unfortunately, I hear the train horn blowing.

So, two questions:

1) What is the determination of a "Certified 3rd Party Installer"?
2) What kind of documentation is necessary for RED's warranty purposes?

Based on these answers, I hope to determine if the oncoming train is on the other set of tracks, narrowly avoiding disaster, or if I need to jump off the Birger Train and do my best to avoid the flying debri.

I absolutely have faith that this will be worked out so that all will be good for all parties. I'm sure this is being worked on as we write these posts. But we should have clarification from RED and Erik after they work out all the details.

As I read Jarred's post, the trade in path to upgrade to Epic is fine and the mount should NOT create problems when upgrading to EPIC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please!!!

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

The mount installed by myself (I do not need to mention the 3rd party vendor name for a certain reason now)

did not damaged my RED1 in five months.

Camera was running for 5-6 hours in a certain productions without any problem.

I do not see any issue that would cause to void warranty with the mount I have.

Also I'm not RED or the 3rd party vendor, I'm just an ordinary RED user.

I cannot talk in their name. Only in my name.

I put myself in a risk, how big it is according to upgrade, etc...I don't know.

Probably I will see at the and of the game.

Waiting for audio upgrade I started to experiment by myself with a different preamp options.

Works well. I found something very affordable in between waiting for...

Also I know that for any serious audio you have to record sound separate because RED1

by itself is a bit loud camera.

That's it. I'm happy and do not need to blame anybody for my risky game.

Can shoot 4K with many mounts and lenses.

Have a very good reference audio for hand-held run & gun.

In a studio I can make 4 channels of audio to record in camera and also in Pro Tools-M powered ALL simultaneously.

That's really enough.

Thank you RED.

 

[Jason Ing]

Hmmm... not sure if I should say this... but it might be food for thought for people and explains why I bailed.

The main issue for me was the lack and poor communication and relations between "Birger" company and customers. The fact that all this happened points to that. If Birger can't communicate well with customers, communicating with Red and Jarred could and apparently did suffer as well.

Or is this an engineering issue? I don't think so.

There could be a lot of finger pointing, but forunately we have a "control group" so to speak.

Andy.

On the engineering side, he created a solution that doesn't void warranty. Just like Doug and the Nikon mount. So two engineers solved this issue.

Also, Andy has good customer service and, apparently, good third party communication with Red as well. I have always gotten a timely response to my emails with Andy. Even when I ended up flip-flopping and being wish-washy with his dumb mount and me being scared about the voided warranty so I cancelled my order and got an immediate refund.

Andy sent in his "stuff" like he said he would and we got word from Jarred that so for so good.

All in good time too.

I think that says everything.

 

[Jason Ing]

The mount installed by myself (I do not need to mention the 3rd party vendor name for a certain reason now)

did not damaged my RED1 in five months.

Camera was running for 5-6 hours in a certain productions without any problem.

I do not see any issue that would cause to void warranty with the mount I have.

Also I'm not RED or the 3rd party vendor, I'm just an ordinary RED user.

I cannot talk in their name. Only in my name.

I put myself in a risk, how big it is according to upgrade, etc...I don't know.

Probably I will see at the and of the game.

Waiting for audio upgrade I started to experiment by myself with a different preamp options.

Works well. I found something very affordable in between waiting for...

Also I know that for any serious audio you have to record sound separate because RED1

by itself is a bit loud camera.

That's it. I'm happy and do not need to blame anybody for my risky game.

Can shoot 4K with many mounts and lenses.

Have a very good reference audio for hand-held run & gun.

In a studio I can make 4 channels of audio to record in camera and also in Pro Tools-M powered ALL simultaneously.

That's really enough.

Thank you RED.

I think it's more then just that you made it work and it's still working. Sort of like breaking a seal and then someone having to worry about the unseen and uknown damages that may happen later. I think Red has a plan to resell all these Red Ones that are coming back. If you did something that could be harming it or damaging it bit by bit, then, ironically, they'll end up with the lemon. So just because it's working now may not be enough to convince Red that your warranty and upgrade should be honored.

I don't wish this on anyone, though. I hope all of this works out and people can use the Birger mount. It's probably obvious and silly to point this out, but not only did a lot of people wait a long time for it, Erik has worked and invested a lot into the mount.

But I think Jarred is right. Red shouldn't be held accountable for the responsiblilities or irresponsibilities of third parties. If Jarred and Red said something that can be proven, well that's another thing.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

I think it's more then just that you made it work and it's still working. Sort of like breaking a seal and then someone having to worry about the unseen and uknown damages that may happen later. I think Red has a plan to resell all these Red Ones that are coming back. If you did something that could be harming it or damaging it bit by bit, then, ironically, they'll end up with the lemon. So just because it's working now may not be enough to convince Red that your warranty and upgrade should be honored.

I don't wish this on anyone, though. I hope all of this works out and people can use the Birger mount. It's probably obvious and silly to point this out, but not only did a lot of people wait a long time for it, Erik has worked and invested a lot into the mount.

But I think Jarred is right. Red shouldn't be held accountable for the responsiblilities or irresponsibilities of third parties. If Jarred and Red said something that can be proven, well that's another thing.

Originally Posted by Jarred Land
Nope.. Birger mount originally had issues, but we worked with Eric and the Birger mount now is approved by RED. You obviously will need to send the camera back though with the RED PL mount attached, for both the Audio board upgrade plan and the Trade in Program.


Frazier, Ocean Imaging
So, I'm still waiting to exhale and wondering what the status is of the Birger mount and if the upgrade trade in path to EpicX is not available if this mount is installed in the future on my camera. Only someone from RED can answer this. But the post above says it's fine, if this is not the case then someone please let us know asap.

Thanks for your help with this and answer in advance.

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging #3002

 

[Joel Kaye]

Here´s the original of the post Frazier mentions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
Birger mount originally had issues, but we worked with Eric and the Birger mount now is approved by RED. You obviously will need to send the camera back though with the RED PL mount attached, for both the Audio board upgrade plan and the Trade in Program.

Thank you Martin, good find. That is exactly what I remembered being the situation. That's a very clear statement. If you've got a working RED with a PL mount on it and no Birger damage you're good to go. And that SHOULD be the situation. That doesn't cost RED a dime and helps keep RED the most innovative, flexible camera choice on the market.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

So close, yet so far.

Does this mean, anyone with a Birger mount, until further notice, just had a big "gulp" I can't trade it in towards an Epic moment? Do they know that?! At one point there was a warranty issue, but then "it was resolved" and so everyone was moving forward. Now this?

My warranty period is almost over anyway, so I wasn't as concerned. But, if this means I can't participate in the upgrade program--I'm done--I won't risk not being able to upgrade.

Please work this out! I've been dying to give to get my hands on it for over a year. Seemed to be lost some time ago, then back on. Finally shipping. Now with View Factor. Woo-hoo!!! Now this?

Birger + Viewfactor seems to be the best solution possible--don't let the dream die!

 

[Joe Vinson]

Hear hear, Thom.

 

[Dominique Grenier]

Birger + Viewfactor seems to be the best solution possible--don't let the dream die!

I really look forward to continue to make business with Birger Engineering, so I really hope a solution can be found. My reaction when I read today's announcements, was more disappointment than anger. I know there is other solutions out there, but I really think the Birger solution, especially now that ViewFactor is involved, is the one I want to work with. However, as much as I hate to say it, if RED keep their side and wont make concessions, we cannot afford to loose our upgrade path to Epic.

 

[Jarred Land]

If you have a Birger mount that has been professionally installed by Birger, and we have the record of that instillation, upgrade to Epic-X is fine..

Just to note though.. we have had zero record of any installations by Birger yet... not meaning he hasn't installed any, we just havn't received the records.

 

[A. Bastaki]

sheesh.. thank god I got a busted mount I had to send it back and didnt install it on my red.

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

I've been following this from the sidelines (and occasionally raising my head above the parapet) and have a question. This latest clarification of the warranty position emerged from some confusion over the wording if an announcement concerning the 'Andy' mount.

If that hadn't of happened, when would we have found out about this? When the first Birgerised (and subsequently de-Birgered) R1's went in for the Epic trade-up, or when one of them developed a fault not consequential to the mount and went in for repair?

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Damnit... lost my first post. Round 2, and much condensed...

Just got off the phone with Erik. We had a good conversation. He stated more than once his commitment to delivering the best possible Canon mount on the market, and he assures me, it will happen sooner than later. He is totally committed to finding a solution to this warranty issue. It may not be ideal, but a solution will be found.

As much as I'd like to just take the current offering from Andy, his mount has some serious shortcomings in a [pseudo-]professional environment, one of which is the lack of a marking wheel and ability to consistently hit a focus mark without the need for a monitor (his new 'Adaptive' mode makes this impossible). Also, wireless is a huge value to me, and the arrangement with ViewFactor and the Impero means a lot.

Erik still isn't off the hook, we're into month 13, and still no mount yet, but Erik did a good job convincing me that it will happen, and soon.

So, what is left? Figuring out this warranty issue. There are a handful of key questions that I feel need to be address, which can only be addressed by RED. As much as Jarred and RED doesn't want to speak for the 3rd Party, they MUST speak for their customers. The bulk of my investment lies in the RED Camera, and they define the rules by which '3rd Parties' interact with their product and their customers. Being that RED made the statements today 'clarifying the warranty issues', I think it is up to RED to continue to clarify until everyone is fully aware of any warranty implications that the Birger, or any other 3rd-party option has on their product. I do not expect a change in policy on RED's part (though it would be nice), but as they have defined the requirements for Birger, I feel they are on the hook to further define the specifics of those requirements, as they relate to who is/can be certified, and what paperwork is necessary to meet RED's requirements.

It was (and continues to be) my understanding that Birger made all necessary changes to their Canon mount, at RED's request, to avoid any kind of certified installation (ie, user-installable), and that if the installation is performed *correctly* (by an end-user) that the RED Warranty would remain in-tact, and valid.

Since RED's recollection of events has changed (based on Jarred's own comments in the past), I feel it is RED's responsibility (not Birger's) to answer the outstanding questions posed by myself and others regarding certification requirements and warranty for purposes of upgrades. The fate of the Birger mount doesn't lie in the balance, rather my RED One (Warranty and all) does.

 

[jaadgy akanni]

I've never had any doubt that in the end, Erik and his Birger mount will prevail, and people will be blown away by the quality of his work...
And although I canceled my order for now, it was only 'cause I ordered a Nikon mount, and that's a long way off. But I'm sure I will reorder when it becomes available.

 

[Jarred Land]

Hey Kyle... Nothing has changed since the meeting and I am sorry you feel that way. The only way a mount can be user-installable is if it does not require removal of the mount. That has never changed. We just gave Erik a small window to get through for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, by authorizing him to install the mount and therefor keeping the warranty in tact.

Stuart and I both sat there and laid out the plan going forward to Erik... nothing has changed since then, in fact there has been zero communication since then. It was up to Erik to create the installation infrastructure, and get us the list of installations, and most importantly, tell his customers the process.

I don't want to make assumptions on reasons why they wouldn't tell the customers the full plan... that had nothing to do with us.

 

[M Hsu]

Hey Kyle... Nothing has changed since the meeting and I am sorry you feel that way. The only way a mount can be user-installable is if it does not require removal of the mount. That has never changed. We just gave Erik a small window to get through for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, by authorizing him to install the mount and therefor keeping the warranty in tact.

Stuart and I both sat there and laid out the plan going forward to Erik... nothing has changed since then, in fact there has been zero communication since then. It was up to Erik to create the installation infrastructure, and get us the list of installations, and most importantly, tell his customers the process.

I don't want to make assumptions on reasons why they wouldn't tell the customers the full plan...

Jarred, for those of us who installed the mount on our own, without knowledge of those conditions, is there a fee we can pay to have someone at RED (or perhaps birger) "re-install it" to insure that is done correctly and thus restore the upgrade path? Or perhaps a certification training program? I'm not going to pretend I haven't installed it already, I understand your official position, but I am hoping there is a reasonable way to get my RED restored to it's upgradeable condition. If I had known this was the case I certainly would not have installed it. It was very much my impression from the boards and from Erik that everything was ok.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Birger Mount and Epic Upgrade Statement

Birger Mount and Epic Upgrade Statement

Damnit... lost my first post. Round 2, and much condensed...

Just got off the phone with Erik. We had a good conversation. He stated more than once his commitment to delivering the best possible Canon mount on the market, and he assures me, it will happen sooner than later. He is totally committed to finding a solution to this warranty issue. It may not be ideal, but a solution will be found.

As much as I'd like to just take the current offering from Andy, his mount has some serious shortcomings in a [pseudo-]professional environment, one of which is the lack of a marking wheel and ability to consistently hit a focus mark without the need for a monitor (his new 'Adaptive' mode makes this impossible). Also, wireless is a huge value to me, and the arrangement with ViewFactor and the Impero means a lot.

Erik still isn't off the hook, we're into month 13, and still no mount yet, but Erik did a good job convincing me that it will happen, and soon.

So, what is left? Figuring out this warranty issue. There are a handful of key questions that I feel need to be address, which can only be addressed by RED. As much as Jarred and RED doesn't want to speak for the 3rd Party, they MUST speak for their customers. The bulk of my investment lies in the RED Camera, and they define the rules by which '3rd Parties' interact with their product and their customers. Being that RED made the statements today 'clarifying the warranty issues', I think it is up to RED to continue to clarify until everyone is fully aware of any warranty implications that the Birger, or any other 3rd-party option has on their product. I do not expect a change in policy on RED's part (though it would be nice), but as they have defined the requirements for Birger, I feel they are on the hook to further define the specifics of those requirements, as they relate to who is/can be certified, and what paperwork is necessary to meet RED's requirements.

It was (and continues to be) my understanding that Birger made all necessary changes to their Canon mount, at RED's request, to avoid any kind of certified installation (ie, user-installable), and that if the installation is performed *correctly* (by an end-user) that the RED Warranty would remain in-tact, and valid.

Since RED's recollection of events has changed (based on Jarred's own comments in the past), I feel it is RED's responsibility (not Birger's) to answer the outstanding questions posed by myself and others regarding certification requirements and warranty for purposes of upgrades. The fate of the Birger mount doesn't lie in the balance, rather my RED One (Warranty and all) does.

"Frazier
I would agree that clearing this all up in detail would help everyone concerned and all Birger Mount customers.

I do agree with the statement below by Kyle."

It was (and continues to be) my understanding that Birger made all necessary changes to their Canon mount, at RED's request, to avoid any kind of certified installation (ie, user-installable), and that if the installation is performed *correctly* (by an end-user) that the RED Warranty would remain in-tact, and valid.

According to the statement made on 10-3-08 by Jarred
Originally Posted by Jarred Land
Nope.. Birger mount originally had issues, but we worked with Eric and the Birger mount now is approved by RED. You obviously will need to send the camera back though with the RED PL mount attached, for both the Audio board upgrade plan and the Trade in Program.

"Frazier,
This tells me that the end user should be able to change out the mount without any problems, it was approved by RED and as long as the PL mount attached was returned it was good to go for upgrade and trade in to Epic.

But according to the latest, now it must be done by Birger.

Sorry guys but it just doesn't seem right to change things around like this."

Respectfully to all,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

 

[Stuart English]

Birger Mount and Warranty

Birger Mount and Warranty

It was (and continues to be) my understanding that Birger made all necessary changes to their Canon mount, at RED's request, to avoid any kind of certified installation (ie, user-installable), and that if the installation is performed *correctly* (by an end-user) that the RED Warranty would remain in-tact, and valid.

No. That's incorrect.

As Jarred has indicated, for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, we said that we would keep the warranty intact, provided that Birger Engineering or an agent of Birger Engineering, install the mount.

It is the responsibility of Birger Engineering to create the necessary installation infrastructure, and to send to us a list of such installations.

 

[M Hsu]

well, it looks like I am headed to boston to get some birger training to become an agent of birger engineering.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Hey Kyle... Nothing has changed since the meeting and I am sorry you feel that way. The only way a mount can be user-installable is if it does not require removal of the mount. That has never changed. We just gave Erik a small window to get through for the benefit of our customers and Birger Engineering, by authorizing him to install the mount and therefor keeping the warranty in tact.

Stuart and I both sat there and laid out the plan going forward to Erik... nothing has changed since then, in fact there has been zero communication since then. It was up to Erik to create the installation infrastructure, and get us the list of installations, and most importantly, tell his customers the process.

I don't want to make assumptions on reasons why they wouldn't tell the customers the full plan...

Jarred,

I hear you. I'm beyond the why and where things broke down. I just need to find a solution that works for me. You stated:

1. You would install the mount or have a 3rd party certified location install the mount.

2. Each mount instillation would be documented and visible to RED.

As this is RED's statement, I feel it necessary that RED further define these requirements, so I can act accordingly.

1. What requirements does RED have to determine who is suitable as a '3rd party certified location'? The key word being 'certified'. Who determines who is certified? If I can become certified to change my own mount, this issue is 90% solved already. If someone in my town is certified, that sucks but is doable. If I have to physically ship the camera to Birger ever other week, that is unacceptable.

2. What kind of documentation is required, and what does 'visible to RED' entail? Do I need to simply keep a log of every time I've changed my mount? Okay, done. Do I have to submit paperwork weekly to RED or Birger that I'm changing my mount again? A pain in the ass, but I'm willing to do it. Do I have to wait for a reply from RED saying "okay, you're warranty is still good this week" before I can safely change mounts? Then we have a problem still.

Again, I'm not pointing figures to point out communication failures... I'm pointing fingers indicating that I'm waiting for a detailed response from... (pointing finger at RED).