Let's talk ergonomics...

[E.J. Sadler]

As to the location of the controls, the 'WiFi Control' bullet in the announcement may mean the controls would be placeable wired/wireless wherever it makes the most sense for the build you're using.

 

[Tim Lüdin]

Damn Brook, these posts are in RED term "badass".
Great ideas. Makes me think very hard to bring some new ones.
It's good to talk about that kinda stuff now, because I think Jim and the team are all over it allready.
Let me think a bit, I'll come up with some stuff too.

Greets
Tim

 

[Michael Hastings]

Brook:

Truly excellent, well thought out work.

You also write very well, and I hope as things settle in a bit with the REDONE that you will write a book. Many of us coming from the video world - TV, corporate, doco, travel, nature, etc. don't always know the intricacies of "film-style" shooting. I'm sure we could get a lot from cinematography books, but it would be nice to have one geared specifically toward REDONE and future digital cinema cameras rather than film as that is probably all many of us will ever use. A collaboration with David Mullen might be a bestseller.

I do agree with Jeff that other lens mounts are pretty important - and I don't think necessarily incompatible with your desire to reduce the throat protrusion. Birger never had a problem with the hard mounted pl, so with a little bit of cooperation it shouldn't be hard to do.

Of course if we could ever get Birger and RED in bed together all sorts of cool stuff is possible. You could easily build the electronics right onto RED circuit boards - for literally a few dollars - and then you would just hook up the physical front part of the birger to the front of the camera. One or two extra 4 pin lemos would allow direct hookup of follow focus and iris knobs and of course -whisper- (since I know it is anathema to many) future software-only upgrades could allow autoiris and autofocus. I'm working on the matchmaking on another thread.:biggrin:

I really thought the REDONE might be my last camera - then I went to NAB and EPIC and the trade in deal has me thinking about replacing it in just a year!! If we could only get Jim to understand the tax value of buying products in December rather than January for those of us working on our first billion!!:biggrin:

 

[Arnaud Paris]

Brook is on crack! Writing more than 1000 lines in the last two days.
Keep it coming brave man!

 

[Joel Kaye]

At $40,000, the EPIC is no RED ONE. I don’t see a lot of people investing this kind of money into a camera only to put a Nikon mount on it.

Not sure I agree here. EPIC is smaller and lighter than RED. Paired with a Birger mount (especially if IS works) EPIC becomes even better handheld camera and therefore worth more than RED to some people. What PL lens has image stabilization? The highest end Canon glass might be the best glass because it's being made for a higher res CMOS camera already.

I think you have to have the SLR option to offer the highest quality, lightest weight high resolution handheld camera in existence.

 

[Michael Hastings]

forgot about IS

forgot about IS

I agree with Joelnet and I forgot about IS, but I can tell you it definitely works. I was playing with IS on my 17-55 IS and my 70-200 2.8L on the birger mount 2 weeks ago, before I swapped backed to a 12mm zeiss for a rental job and it definitely works.

I also think EOS/NIKON/SLR smart mount future proofs us as large sums of money are spent each year on these lenses providing large economies of scale for both manufacturing and research. In addition, it leaves open the ability to change sensor sizes or even have multiple sensor options since the SLR lenses cover up to 36x24mm in size.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

My point isn't to abandon ENG/EFP/etc. for the sake of it... but to make sure that cine-style shooting comes first. If a feature for another style of shooting detracts from the cine-style aspects of the camera, well... time to rethink that one. If it adds to it or doesn't affect it... go for it!

I'd be a little careful about assuming that the majority of work that the majority of RED owners are doing is cine style shooting. Do we know this?

Has RED ever surveyed its actual user base to ascertain what percentages of its actual owners are using the camera for cine-style work? Or what percent of their work is cine-style, as opposed to other forms? I know that RED is drawn this direction because it gets them all the best press and the street cred. But is it what the majority of owners are using the cameras for? And then there are all the rentals, hard to account for.

But we really have no hard data on how the camera is being used, do we?

Because of its weight reduction, EPIC is actually much more appealing than RED ONE for faster environments and portability/mobility -- which usually indicates EFP style shooting. EPIC and a dSLR mount are a dangerously attractive combination for EFP -- dangerous because I can feel the tugging at my wallet already.

A four-pound weight reduction, plus what sounds like it will be vastly improved onboard audio, maybe even pots?? And the option to use a light lens? Sounds like an EFP dream machine, especially compared to RED ONE with some of the compromises and adjustments that need to be made for EFP environments.

Not that I think EFP and cine-style design decisions are always mutually exclusive, but I'm just sayin'--

A very interesting discussion, indeed.

 

[Charles Papert]

A Steadicam Operator or a Technocrane operator, for example, may prefer a smaller box-shape over a kidney shape, assuming they don't also have to do some handheld shooting themselves.

Any camera that is designed well for handheld should be compatible with Steadicam (and will be small enough that it will fit comfortably on a Techno or similar). Steadicam-wise, we like low and not too long. I personally like wide also, and had put in my desire to Jim and the gang before the One came out that it should have been rotated 90 degrees (i.e. wider rather than taller)--this is good for handheld also as it gets the center of gravity lower.

Connectors on the "dumb" side are not good for Steadicam as many of us fly with the rig on the left; right angles can be used as long as they don't interfere with the plug below. The breakout boxes that have emerged for the One that point the connectors to the rear are the right idea of course (too bad you need an outboard box to do this though).

 

[Joel Kaye]

SLR lenses cover up to 36x24mm in size.

That's a good point too. SLR lenses cover a much bigger sensor than PL lenses. So EPIC could be an IMAX camera... but only IF SLR lenses are used to cover a larger sensor.

Yeah - you wanna turn the industry on it's head? RED should design CINE styles lenses to cover a full SLR sized sensor. Hell, buy Canon lenses and rehouse them with cinema mechanics. Face it, no one's buying RED lenses to put on a film camera so why not make EPIC a camera that requires RED lenses (or SLR lenses) to take advantage of the huge sensor? I think it's a more profitable strategy. A lot of people would buy those lenses.

 

[roryhinds]

you're right on the money Brook.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Brook, excellent posts -- very much on similar points to what we dealt with when consulting on the Phantom HD camera body design. We're still working on it (various accessories on the way) but I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

[Brook Willard]

You just let me know, Mitch. I'd love to see how it's coming.

Anybody from RED have any thoughts on these ideas? I'd love to see a current rendering of the Epic body.

 

[Harry Clark]

Brook,
Well said.
I think that the Red Team would be well-served to try to narrow the focus of this camera's design based on its market; and as you have pointed out, it seems to be priced more as a digital cinema camera than a "straddle" product like Red One.
I would love to see them conduct a few focus groups with DPs, ACs, operators, and rental house technicians and REALLY tailor this thing before they build in unforseen limitations. I would certainly love to participate.
Besides ergonomics, control and connector placement, and other physical design considerations, we need to be free from the rolling shutter artifacts, have a near-instant boot up time, and a more rock-solid recording scheme (both in terms of being "codec error"-free and robust physically) Also, as discussed in Brook's other Epic post (although somewhat hijacked) the sensor could be a tad bigger to really match the S35mm optical standard.
And I second the notion that I, and others, would rather pay $45,000 for a digital 235 than $35,000 for a camera that's not quite there.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Michael Ragen]

Ergonomics are definitely one of the big deciding factors for me in my decision to upgrade or not.

Based on how I've been using my Red, and it already being front heavy, I'm worried about the shorter and lighter Epic being even more front heavy, and I'm not looking forward to putting it on my shoulder.

Pretty pretty please move the controls off the back. I love shooting hand held, but not always off my shoulder, and with the button placement on the Red One, it is easy for me to accidently bump something on the back.

Brook, I really appreciate the time you have taken in putting this post together, and I hope some of your ideas get taken under heavy consideration.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Great thread, Brook. As usual.
Please, make this a sticky.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Should be a sticky.

Brooks posts are a lot of work, and a great contribution. Hopfully Red is listening.

The Arri 235's design is second to none - if we talk about ergonomics. And if Arri would have been so innovative in terms of digital cinematography as Red is I would have never purchased a RedOne.

RedOnes design flaws are obvious to everyone who wants to shoot handheld. As Jim pointed out several times that Epic will be dsigned off a white paper I'm sure that there is hope that it won't become a 5K Bolex.

The more I shoot with the RedOne the more I like the pictures but not the ergonomics.

Hans

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Brilliant posts Brook

I'm not sure how to universally define "Badass" but I reckon the 235 looks and feels much more badass than the RED 1. My big concern with RED 1 was it's ergonomics and easy of use for a single operator. A 235 like design with two quality audio ports would work great in most EFP/ENG situations.

 

[Brook Willard]

Glad to hear that - with a few exceptions on specific points - everybody is universally agreeing with me. Hopefully RED has noticed.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Best Post Ever...

I've sent emails and PM's to RED with similar ( but much less well presented ) content and not received any response, which was not encouraging.

I hope Red is listening to this.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Michael Ragen]

I wouldn't mind waiting an extra 6-8 months if it means we would get a killer handheld design.

Besides, I have this sweet little Red camera (and hopefully a Scarlet or two) to tide me over until Epic is ready. And of course the whole computer world would have a chance to catch up so we can deal with 5k on our laptops.