Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Michael Hastings]

I can´t help thinking that this is a discussion that should go on between Birger and Red. But since it is in the open, and I do not see any benefit of the i-Cable - especially as it apparently is not even enabled - I second Erics suggestion, having the option of getting the Red One without the cable.

Where does this leave reservation holders at the moment? Specifically those who do not want to take delivery of the current mount and void their warranty.

It seems perhaps that Red and Birger have finished their discussions.

I just have a feeling things are in limbo because no-body knows who is taking the next step here. Erik is not pleased with the current situation and/or having cameras sent to him for installation. The board don't seem happy with this either. Red seem to not want to budge on the warranty.

Red have been very quiet since the meeting, which either means they are thinking about their view on this, or they see no need to repeat what they have already said. But Im sure I'm not the only one who still thinks there are issues between the two companys that need to be talked over more.

I was in the midst of typing a post over on another thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=247482#post247482
when I went to lunch and came back and saw that Erik made his post, and the flurry of new posts.

Martin:

You are right, this is a discussion that should have been between RED and Birger since before RED changed the PL mount and consistently afterwards.

I am very appreciative of how RED took care of me and my camera - they made one of those heroic efforts to get me going again before my trip to the bahamas, however there are a couple of larger issues here.

I didn't talk about the specifics of what happened because I wanted to give them some time to think about it and realize they weren't going to get a truckload of cameras back - Erik took care of the RS232 lens port (remember it's supposed to be the LENS PORT) problem after only 3 units had been shipped out.

I came back from a 3 day trip to the bahamas and learned of the arbitrary decision that the adjustable portion of the pl mount is now the dividing line between warranty/no warranty which I STRONGLY believe has no rational basis given the i/data cable (which probably wasn't the problem in these 3 cases anyway) has the same exposure or worse when changing back and forth to the RED Nikon mount. And of course the FD mount (remember that? - has been one for many months) has always required removing the whole PL - old and new. I would also invite you to take a look at this post which talks about the history of the Nikon mount:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=246867#post246867

which was essentially invented, prototyped and offered for sale by Erik in February, canceled, picked up by Doug Underdahl and then sold to RED (and this is info not from my inside knowledge but by several other posters so not subject to NDA). And it is really sadly ironic, in that I am guessing that RED's own Nikon mount was taking so long because they were making it with its own adjuster AND ERIK SHOWED THEM A WAY TO DO IT WITHOUT REMOVING THE INNER PART OF THE MOUNT - now the separator between dumb and smart mounts.

I also came back to a full voicemail box, emails, pms, etc. about this. So I spent Wednesday with the headache of what and how to respond (remember some of these people are those housing customers that I convinced to buy a RED instead of a competing product - and believe me EX1s and HVX200 and its successor are competitors at the low end - because Birger let them use a $700 canon lens to get exceptional results). I spent an hour Wednesday night writing a post that touched on some of the issues and then decided to still hold off and tabled it. Thursday morning I asked for a chance to discuss with people at RED these issues with no response yet.

And then I get up this morning and someone is offering a RED-EOS dumb mount - which is just a slap in Erik's face, as he could do what that guy is offering in his sleep. Not that big a deal, but the kicker is Jarred responded to it - yet I have never seen nor does a thread search show a single post from him on THIS, THE LARGEST, MOST VIEWED THREAD ON THE REDUSER SITE.

So, in honor of the 4th of July and Truth, Justice, and the American way, I am going to say a little more of the truth (still actually quite restrained but sure to get myself in hot water anyway):

I AM TIRED OF THE SHORT SHRIFT BIRGER/ERIK and THE RED/BIRGER CUSTOMERS HAVE BEEN GETTING. This policy is BS, arbitrary, and not based on rational parameters. It needs to be changed NOW so we can all move on. biggrin: Well, maybe not NOW, its the 4th, but monday! :biggrin

We as owners have rights. Given that the REDONE is a highend professional DIGITAL CINEMA camera, which by definition puts it in the range of Arriflex/Panavision movie cameras, video cameras like the F900, Varicam, etc. and is intended to be used in remote areas, in high pressure situations, all manner of funky applications like dollies, cranes, steadicams, motion control, helicopters, underwater, deserts, mountains, close quarter locations like cars, planes, submarines, etc. - and therefore we have a reasonable expectation that we will be allowed to do minor field modifications, as well as eventually (and given over 1000 cameras in the field - soon) having full documentation to be able to have competent technicians, of the level commonly found at TV stations and rental houses, open the camera and do even board level repairs without voiding the warranty.

Erik now has the information he needed and has both made the changes and added protection on his end. Obviously, if someone shorts out a component during install, that isn't covered by warranty. But it still seems to me that removing 8 (or 12 in the case of birger) bolts and tucking away a cable shouldn't be anything that would void a warranty as it is well within the expected skill level of anyone that would be likely to be owning/using a $20,000+ professional camera.

What we want is direction on a reasonable way to handle the i/cable or, if through design flaw or whatever, that is too dangerous then a reasonable way to have it removed - after all it is like an appendix - something that seems to cause problems and is easy to remove and doesn't seem to serve a useful purpose anyway. If it needs to be shipped to RED so be it, the eventual installation of the missing i/data pins would have required a similar effort anyway. Just be reasonable. A better way to handle it would be to send out a modification bulletin, as has been regularly done by Panasonic, Sony, Ikegami, Arri, and every other professional camera manufacturer for the past 30 years or more, and let those that have competent technicians handle it in the field - others could send it to RED or a certified repair tech.

And while you are at it - give us, or at least make available - a complete service manual, with circuit diagrams, parts lists, etc. like every one of the dozen or so pro cameras I've owned too, so when we are in Indonesia, or the Philippines, or the Yucatan, or Africa and spent $50K in travel expenses - as many of my customers - and a lot of you others as well do, we're not just SOL.

I think I have stuck my neck out far enough, so if you guys agree with this it is time for you all to pick up the battle flag and run with it.

Sincerely,

Michael Hastings AKA AquaVideoRED206 and still a RED believer - build 16 is great!; so is 2.40 4.5k, now if I could just use those Canon SLR lenses that I know will cover it!

Thanks Erik for posting the info about the I-Cable. Removing the I-Cable makes so much sense. 1. The Birger Mount will not pass iris info to the camera using the I-Cable anyway, it will do so with the RS232. 2. The I data is also not even used by Red yet, there are currently no data pins in the PL mounts so this will have to be a future mod anyway.

Hopefully Red will agree that with the I-Cable removed there will be NO REASON to prohibit users from removing the inside Red plate. Nothing to short. We can then get back the flexibility we were all expecting with this amazing camera. I do also hope that they will allow professional camera repair technicians/companies to remove the I-cable so that people in other parts of the world will not be burdoned by international shipping and customs.

With the I-cable removed we can go back to swapping the mounts ourselves.

Just wanted to echo what you said.

I can only emphasize that, without a Birger that I can swap out myself without voiding a warranty, I will not be buying a RED. I have always believed the Birger was, by far, the most important "accessory" for the camera, the one which really made ownership financially feasible for a host of prospective buyers (including myself) and the one which also happens to offer the most intriguing electronic control and technological integration.

I implore RED to adopt a more reasonable warranty policy regarding this product (whether that entails removal of the i-cable before shipping or what have you) so that reservation holders like myself can still realize the hope of owning this camera.

Ellizabeth, I believe you are just one of a great many current res holders like this and wanted to echo this too.

PS photo of original birger/nikon dumb mount from I think 2/8/08. Look familiar?

 

[Tico Llaurador]

Mike. Thanks for posting this. I empathize 100% with both you and Elizabeth's assessments. I personally have been a good-will ambassador-at-large of RED before my friends and industry peers for well over a year. And have perhaps been directly or indirectly responsible for the sale of a handful of cams. And not because of the I-tech compatible PL mount, but because of the RED's well-publicized (and equally celebrated) "proposed" ability to use state-of-the-art still camera lenses, with its obvious benefits, by way of the Canon and Nikon mounts from Birger Engineering.

These latest developments involving RED's "user replaceable part policy" (or lack of) have suddenly made me feel like I have been advocating the purchase of ocean-front property in Oklahoma all along.

Not good. And certainly not my style. I sure hope it's not RED's style either.

And I say this with all due respect for those responsible of making the very best camera I ever dreamed of owning. And for that, again, I thank RED over and over again.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Michael (Aqua), just wanted to say that I agree with everything in your fabulous (last) post. It's a shame that Erik was apparently dissuaded (by RED?) from coming out with a competing Nikon dumb mount as an interim solution that could be later applied toward a Birger smart mount. But it's a far bigger shame that that engineering "gift" to RED has still left him facing an irrational warranty policy that is going to add unnecessary expense and, in some cases, prohibitive complications to folks buying and using his smart mounts (and, in cases like mine, even the camera itself).

I have to believe that the same reason and superb attention to customer needs that characterizes RED's top personnel and development effort overall will win out and that they will reach a much more reasonable arrangement/policy with regard to the Birger mount and RED warranty. I just hope they do so before Erik loses too many customers to other lens solutions and before guys like you, who have staked so much in the viability of the Birger mount, have forfeited too much work or clients.

 

[Andrew M.]

Michael is 100% right, The i/ cable have to be handled almost the same way when you install Nikon mount. I forgot about it.
Birger mount gives unique opportunity to control lenses under water and allows computerised control with laptop now and maybe with RED in the future.

If RED doesn't have truckload of cameras now because of Nikon mount, logics indicate that they will have the same result with the Birger mount times the bigger number of Birger mounts sold.
RS232 connector will not be used anymore so no chance for audio board to be fried.

If someone will damage something installing Birger mount it has the same chances to be damaged as when you install Nikon mount. I would like to hear any argument from anyone to the opposite?

Warranty should be not voided but if you cause damage to the camera installing any mount Nikon or Canon, you will be charged. It is just my opinion.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I see next week should be very important to Birger.

To be, or not to be: that is the question.

That's Hamlet's question!

"HAMLET:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd."

Comes from William Shakespeare's Hamlet,

Prince of Denmark (written about 1600).

 

[Kenn Christenson]

If you haven't contacted Red - PLEASE DO SO! This has gone on far too long and we need an equitable solution (that doesn't involve shipping our cameras anywhere.)

 

[David Wilson]

I feel it is only fair to add our voice to these comments in support of Michael (Aqua's) thoughtful posting.

Our Museum finds itself in a position very similar to Elisabeth’s. We entered into this extraordinary fray because of our understanding that we would be able to use affordable (yet high quality) Canon lenses with this remarkable (if, for us, costly) camera – a option made possible through the similarly remarkable efforts of Erik at Birger.

As ecstatic as we are about the imminent delivery of our long-awaited RED, I cannot in good faith (considering the Museum’s budget), find a way to justify taking delivery of our camera if the Birger Mount cannot be part of our package without revoking the camera warranty.

We remain ever optimistic that these still dimly understood difficulties will be soon laid to rest through the fair-mindedness of both RED and Birger.

David Wilson

 

[Martin Weiss]

A few days ago both Jarred and Erik posted that they had come up with a workable solution. In the aftermath we haven't really heard anything on the matter from Red, and Erik does not really seem happy with the arrangement.

And a lot of customers are stranded between two camps we thought would pull at the same string.

I pray that there is some constructive thinking and solution-seeking going on behind the scenes, but from reading this and other threads it surely does not sound that way.

This feels just so unRed...

 

[Joe Vinson]

I agree with a lot of what the previous posters have said, but let me just clarify a point about the current arrangement as I understand it: installing the Birger mount will not void your warranty if Birger installs it for you. This adds time and expense, but it's possible. However, you presumably can't switch back and forth between the PL (or other) mount by yourself.

Now, for many of you who plan to use PL lenses from time to time, this is a dealbreaker. I've known from the start that I'll be using SLR lenses only, so it's not the end of the world for me. I'm just pissed about having to pay extra for the shipping and labor, and of course the additional delays.

From the redesigned PL mount and camera surface to this warranty situation, it certainly seems like Erik has gotten the short end of the stick. It just don't seem right.

 

[Adam Levins]

I agree with a lot of what the previous posters have said, but let me just clarify a point about the current arrangement as I understand it: installing the Birger mount will not void your warranty if Birger installs it for you. This adds time and expense, but it's possible. However, you presumably can't switch back and forth between the PL (or other) mount by yourself.

Now, for many of you who plan to use PL lenses from time to time, this is a dealbreaker. I've known from the start that I'll be using SLR lenses only, so it's not the end of the world for me.

I would Guess that you are the exception rather than the rule. I feel everyones frustration but I think RED will sort this out. I've got my fingers crossed.

Right now there sems to be too much guesswork and conjecture, I am betting that by the end of next week the outlook will be more clear.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Thanks to Michael Hastings aka Auqavideo for his post. I agree 100% with Mike.

The major purpose of this forum is for Red to hear from us, their customers.
In fact, Reduser.net was vital in the developement of the Red camera by maintaining two-way communication directly between Red headquarters and us, the end users.

Please Red, don't stop listening now.

 

[Karl H]

I don't know if Red are listening, but I support what Aqua said as well. I bought my camera on the whole idea that we would have a canon mount from Red. At the moment it's an expensive door stop. A dumb mount really isnt an option because I need iris control with EOS lenses.

I'd like Red to come up with some way forward here that's fair to those who took the leap of faith with them and to everyone else involved with the mount.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

I don't know if Red are listening, but I support what Aqua said as well. I bought my camera on the whole idea that we would have a canon mount from Red. At the moment it's an expensive door stop. A dumb mount really isnt an option because I need iris control with EOS lenses.

I'd like Red to come up with some way forward here that's fair to those who took the leap of faith with them and to everyone else involved with the mount.

aye. me too.

 

[Martin Weiss]

next week the outlook will be more clear.

"Next Week", hmmm... finally we are back to the good old grand theme of this thread :blush:

-----

Right now there is little else we can do than wait for Red and Birger, but first and foremost Red.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Michael is 100% right, The i/ cable have to be handled almost the same way when you install Nikon mount. I forgot about it.
Birger mount gives unique opportunity to control lenses under water and allows computerised control with laptop now and maybe with RED in the future.

If shorting the i/data cable really fries a RED then RED has a serious issue on their hands.

That cable has to connect to pins in lenses. Putting a lens on hastily could short them. Wouldn't a metal mount from a lens cause a short? That could happen all the time. Not to mention a defective lens could have a short in it.

To me, that's a pretty serious design flaw. Or am I wrong here and those pins are protected somehow which would make them very difficult to short?

 

[Michael Hastings]

"Next Week", hmmm... finally we are back to the good old grand theme of this thread :blush:

Don't start Martin, I can't handle many more next weeks. Pretty funny though.:biggrin:

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

Red Sos Help

Red Sos Help

Mike.... BRAVO!!!

I agree 100 %

Honestly I can't wait to get delivery of my camera. I love Red philosophy, I love that they hear their customers and they keep improving their camera all the time. 4.5K !! Great.

But this situation I think it is ridiculous. The most posted thread means something right? We all love RED and the Birger solution is so important for so many of us. So I think this situation is unparalleled.

Red has gone out of their way many times. They've heard customers wishing 1080 P and even-though they thought it wasn't necessary, they did it. There are many features from Red that I will never use, but still I applaud RED for taking the time to make them happen.

I just hope Jim and company won't go deaf on this one. Because as far as I can read in this thread the willing to have a swappable Canon - PL mount is as loud as the fireworks we'll hear tonight. So I also would ask RED to try to make it happen.

Now message for Birger. Thank you for posting and clarifying things. Please keep working as fast as possible and finish the mount with at least the knobs because even in the worst case scenario that RED won't change their policy I will even drive all the way to Boston and give you my RED for installation.

Of course this is not a solution but I can tell you I can GIVE UP PL mount until my warranty expires, but it is very difficult for me to give up still lenses. I have seen your product and I trust in what you can make. I really don't want to cancel my order and switch to Nikon. I have some time, so I will keep waiting.

Eclaire, Also I agree 100% again BRAVO!. I might be in the same boat as you.

I can only emphasize that, without a Birger that I can swap out myself without voiding a warranty, I will not be buying a RED. I have always believed the Birger was, by far, the most important "accessory" for the camera, the one which really made ownership financially feasible for a host of prospective buyers (including myself) and the one which also happens to offer the most intriguing electronic control and technological integration.

I implore RED to adopt a more reasonable warranty policy regarding this product (whether that entails removal of the i-cable before shipping or what have you) so that reservation holders like myself can still realize the hope of owning this camera.

 

[M Hsu]

If what Erik says is true, then installing the birger mount poses no more risk than the nikon mount which means I am fine with voiding my warranty. Please Erik, post a shipping schedule for those of us that are ready to take delivery now so we can make decisions about alternates. I know at least Akube and I are willing to go next and see if the birger mkII bricks our cameras. Beta round II! Bring it. Or bring the dumb mount.

Happy 4th everyone.

 

[lonny dill]

The i-cable is very tricky. Even though Red indicated our board fried because of operator error and a short , I am sceptical. As others will soon see, when you remove your mount look closely at the wires, you will see factory direct the jacket on the wires most likely will have a pinch already. I noticed it and inspected it but didn't see any exposed copper. The Birger install instructions actually illustrate how to insert this i-cable into a shrink wrap which makes it near impossible to pinch a wire while the Birger is mounted. The 1/100,000 second spike theory makes total sense to me. I don't really care who's fault it is. It is secondary. I can see I am not alone, I am glad others believe in Birger. I also believe in Red and know they didn't get this far by ignoring customer requests. I am sure they are paying attention and I look forward to seeing their solution in the near future.

 

[Rami Mustakim]

Let's face it!

Let's face it!

For some reason Red doesn't want this Birger mount. So why?

Maybe Red is currently working on their own mount...
And maybe Erik should sell his idea to Red before it's too late!

So everybody would be happy:
Erik with some royalties (better than nothing), Red with its Red label on the mount and most important we could have our mounts and warranty!!!

I know it sounds weird but I can't figure why else Red stays still deaf to this major customers problem.