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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

CamDiver said:
.

.. especially given the way RED has kept us in the loop even at times of super high stress.

Mark.
Click to expand...

RED has 13 people who, because they had virtually no product to ship, (and even now don't actually make these things) could spend a lot of their time "keeping us in the loop". Further, if more was out there about some of the behind the scenes stuff, you might not feel that you were really in the loop.

Doug Underdahl created a working Nikon mount that fits into the new adjustable pl mount in a matter of days. (As I suggested earlier could be done, since a dumb mount is just not that hard.)

http://www.youtube.com/user/dlunderdahl

So why has it taken RED months? They designed the new pl mount in October or November for shipments in December. That's at least 3 or 4 months that they have know the exact design parameters, and still more than two months since they had working cameras with the mounts. Yet it took Doug a couple of days? WTF??? Act 3 Scene 2: street dealer opens his trench coat and says: "Can I interest you in an 18-50 PL?":sarcasm:

I don't want to trash RED - love my camera. And I too get a little anxious when I call Erik and his voicemail is full like it was monday.

But I also know what it is like to be a micro manufacturer (and L&M, Amphibico, Gates, etc. are in the same boat - there aren't any big U/W manufacturers - even Ikelite is a tiny business by normal standards.) It is hard sometimes to get product out on schedule when you not only have to make the stuff, but answer the phone/emails because there is only one person that has the technical expertise when a major motion picture producer calls and wants 14 housings in 3 different configurations with fiber optic control interface; and another major company wants to buy 3 RED housings but again with special configuration and $20K worth of underwater connectors which have to spec'd and quotes obtained from the U/W connector company; and 2 other potential customers want info on 2 different new Sony cameras that nobody has made housings for yet. And spend three hours to try to track down the USPS lost package, and then get RED to help with a slightly longer LCD cable, so we can actually finish the external LCD case, and get it out and get paid and blah, blah, blah, blah, and this is all just the past few weeks. And I have another major motion picture company with a special project - that I haven't even responded because it involves an NDA that I have to modify. And I haven't sent Camdiver a specific quote because of the landslide of other stuff (and because the basics have been posted - so it is out there), but may lose that one just because of poor response.

This kind of pileup doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen - with no predictable pattern - several times a year. And I know it is the same for Birger - RED isn't the only thing he has going on.


EDIT: Just spoke to Erik at 12:11 EST and he said he has some firm dates for parts as well as a couple cool new features, one which I have been asking for specifically re: the underwater housing but also useful for everyone else (there's a whole thread dedicated to it); and the second that has nothing to do with underwater but is a VERY nice addition for everyone - but I will let him announce those to you probably in a post later today or tomorrow.
 
I WANT MY BIRGER MOUNT!

There. . . I think I've made myself clear.

:-)

Come on, Erik. . . I can't wait!

Stephen
 
Update

Update

I just got off the phone with aquavideo... he said "the natives are getting restless".

PCBs and mechanical parts for the mounts are presently being fabricated. The extra time was worth it. I promise you of this. A short list of features that were requested and incorporated into the adapter plate for the RED camera:
  • Shimless collimation (yeah I know, we changed our minds....)
  • Remote start and stop of camera
  • Iris control and calibration pushbuttons
I do not have the time to read through any of the posts for a few days... first 50 units should be rolling off the production line next week. Knobs might not be available until the following week.

BTW, John Ellerbrock from Gates Underwater Products is sending us his camera for the next two weeks so we can do all of the validation with the initial production units, and document the collimation procedure.
 
The Birger additions are cool!

The Birger additions are cool!

birgerEngineer said:
I just got off the phone with aquavideo... he said "the natives are getting restless".

PCBs and mechanical parts for the mounts are presently being fabricated. The extra time was worth it. I promise you of this. A short list of features that were requested and incorporated into the adapter plate for the RED camera:
  • Shimless collimation (yeah I know, we changed our minds....)
  • Remote start and stop of camera
  • Iris control and calibration pushbuttons
I do not have the time to read through any of the posts for a few days...
Click to expand...

Well, there it is:

The remote start and stop is the one I was pushing for - so thanks for that.

The iris control buttons: these were talked about initially (like a year ago) but then was decided it wouldn't be offered, so I gave up on it. Nice to see this come back as it means you could adjust iris without having any knobs connected, or adjusted by the operator at the camera instead of via the knob if an assistant had it. (After all, the biggest need filled by the EOS mount is some way to control iris - since EF lenses don't have an iris ring.)

This means you could use say an EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM in a typical run n gun style setup like you do with a regular broadcast camera, a Z1, HVX200, etc. Focus manually, and iris manually with the buttons on the mount - no additional wires, knobs, etc. To me this is pretty huge as it eliminates one of the big advantages of Nikon still lenses on a manual mount (which BTW you can still use on the EOS with a $20 adapter).

Steven-Marc said:
Thanks for the update. Sounds fantastic!
It also sounds like it will take another month or so before it actually ships?
Click to expand...

That's not the impression I got - maybe initial product end of next week/following week. They have some pretty impressive equipment in house for board/final assembly.

Steven-Marc said:
Thanks for the update. Sounds fantastic!
It also sounds like it will take another month or so before it actually ships?
Click to expand...

Something similar (don't know if it uses actual RED adjustment part) but should be similar process - i.e. with the wide lens and charts.
 
Aqua, thanks for decoding! The iris pushbuttons sound very useful for ENG style shooting. You'd still be limited by the short throw of focus on these lenses, but I can think of many situations were it could come real handy.
 
Steven-Marc said:
You'd still be limited by the short throw of focus on these lenses, but I can think of many situations were it could come real handy.
Click to expand...

Short throw of focus? It sounds like you should be able to calibrate the throw to be what you want it to be.

If you meant limited by shallow DOF then you could shoot 2K and get 2/3" style DOF.
 
I meant if you use it without the wheel or remote, as aquavideo pointed out. Just the mount and the lens, without a focus puller. Setting the iris with the push buttons on the mount and focusing the lens normally with it's own focus ring.
 
I understand completely what smaller companies endure to survive but a lot of people, myself included, have now gone to the expense of dishing out big bucks in order to be able to work without delay upon arrival of our systems. I've even seen some people stating that they have left their systems boxed due to no mount for their lenses. I would understand the delay of the mount if Birger had decided maybe only two months ago to work on the mount but its been quite a lot longer than that. For the amount of silence we have all endured and expense we have incurred I for one am not terribly convinced of the attention to public relations. Small company or not, as the saying goes: "you only get one chance to impress".

These are just my thoughts. I do not wish to receive PM's as I have in the past when I, in accordance with the general understanding of what a public forum is, decide to air my opinion. If anything needs to be said please keep it here and in a debatable air.

Regards,
Mark.
P.S I'm sure I am not the only person with such views.
 
birgerEngineer said:
I just got off the phone with aquavideo... he said "the natives are getting restless".

PCBs and mechanical parts for the mounts are presently being fabricated. The extra time was worth it. I promise you of this. A short list of features that were requested and incorporated into the adapter plate for the RED camera:
  • Shimless collimation (yeah I know, we changed our minds....)
  • Remote start and stop of camera
  • Iris control and calibration pushbuttons
I do not have the time to read through any of the posts for a few days... first 50 units should be rolling off the production line next week. Knobs might not be available until the following week.

BTW, John Ellerbrock from Gates Underwater Products is sending us his camera for the next two weeks so we can do all of the validation with the initial production units, and document the collimation procedure.
Click to expand...

Erik,

go go,

all sound very good!
 
CamDiver said:
P.S I'm sure I am not the only person with such views.
Click to expand...

unfortunately, those views go entirely unanswered...might as well speak them into a void.

sounds like it will be a great product.

did anyone get a confirmation with a last name starting with "Z" yet? or even an "S"? or at least past an "E"?

at least, then i will know for sure that my reservation never made it on the list...
 
CamDiver said:
I understand completely what smaller companies endure to survive but a lot of people, myself included, have now gone to the expense of dishing out big bucks in order to be able to work without delay upon arrival of our systems. I've even seen some people stating that they have left their systems boxed due to no mount for their lenses. I would understand the delay of the mount if Birger had decided maybe only two months ago to work on the mount but its been quite a lot longer than that. For the amount of silence we have all endured and expense we have incurred I for one am not terribly convinced of the attention to public relations. Small company or not, as the saying goes: "you only get one chance to impress".

These are just my thoughts. I do not wish to receive PM's as I have in the past when I, in accordance with the general understanding of what a public forum is, decide to air my opinion. If anything needs to be said please keep it here and in a debatable air.

Regards,
Mark.
P.S I'm sure I am not the only person with such views.
Click to expand...

Public relations - at least to the REDUSER community, doesn't seem to be Erik's strong suit. You aren't the only one with those views, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that it is unreasonable for you to be disgusted.

My tolerance comes partly from understanding and also, more importantly, Birger is such a critical part of making the underwater package work nicely and cost effectively (and I suspect it is the same way for Gates too) that I just have to be sort of patient and it will be done when it's done.

The thing that confounds me is: why you are cutting RED so much slack?

Setting aside whether they should have assisted Birger more, and, although I've danced around this before, I guess setting aside my not wanting to piss somebody at RED off - I will go ahead and spit it out: the delay in the RED Nikon mount was just plain abusive to their customers. Coming on the forum regularly and saying "it's coming, you'll like it, etc." doesn't change that fact. Good PR doesn't change actual actions. Doug Underdahl proved that it was basically as easy as myself and others said it should be.

I don't need to be upset with RED and I'll say it again: I love my camera and think it is the best thing to happen to underwater photography since the Nikonos. I was never in the market for a RED PL mount lens because nothing in their line is wide enough. If there was no Birger I would have purchased a used 10 or 12mm Zeiss (or bit the $30K bullet with an 8R) for underwater. If I needed lenses for other stuff I would have either purchased a couple used primes or zoom or more likely simply rented (or bartered RED subrentals) from ARRI/CSC, Cinevideotech, or others that I have good relationships here in South Florida.

But it seems like you are being backed into an 18-50 for $6500 - when a $500 RED Nikon mount and a 24-85mm f/2.8-4.0 for $560 from B&H would have been a great interim solution until whenever Birger is ready and - since it has macro - could serve double duty as a manual underwater macro lens if Birger NEVER gets their sh*t together, and you could get a superwide or fisheye nikon for the rest.

Again, I have no reason to be pissed about it, but I don't understand why you aren't?

None of this is meant as a knock against you personally. I consider you one of the RED bubble blowin' brethren no matter where we end up down the road (probably toasting each other at a tiki bar on some island) - and always appreciate your posts and opinions - I'm just trying to understand.
 
studiodrome said:
Just curious. should we have received an order confirmation yet if we placed our order 3 months ago? or are these e-mail confirmations further down the road still?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I placed mine in the same time period and haven't received a reply - but my credit card DID get billed for a reservation.
 
That's all I ask for.

That's all I ask for.

studiodrome said:
Just curious. should we have received an order confirmation yet if we placed our order 3 months ago? or are these e-mail confirmations further down the road still?
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no idea at all if my reservation fax and/or follow up email and PM were received, read or lost.

What's up with that? 90 days and ZERO response?

I'm trying to be understanding of the new product from a small company scenario. Been there a few times in the past, (way before RED even). But I'm at a complete loss to understand what appears to be a total disregard for all those who are putting faith in Birger.

Sending a simple email acknowledging that the reservation was received is the right thing to do.

But.. oh, forget it. What's the point..?
 
Evolve said:
hmmm, has anyone else not been billed as I?
Click to expand...
As far as I can tell, I haven't been billed yet. My order was placed on Nov. 30th.

Erik, thanks for the update. The additional features do sound great! I look forward to seeing the finished mount in action.
 
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