RED Product Cycle

[Cedric Gall]

Anyone has any input on how often does RED refresh their lineup?

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it with the search bar so here I am.

Some context:
I am not interested in owning the latest and greatest camera tech for my own work, BUT I am considering buying a Komodo/V-Raptor for renting it out, but I'm painfully aware that rentals drop in price VERY rapidly when new models come out, and medium to large productions become immediately uninterested.

Ideally, I'd love to buy a Red as soon as it's released, and rent it out for its whole product cycle, sell it for cheap, rinse and repeat.

Seeing that the Komodo has been out for 2+ years or so, and the V-Raptor for a little over 1 year, and that RED does release new products all the time, I've started to think if it might be a good idea to wait a little to buy whatever replaces the Komodo, or just get the Raptor even if it's been out for a little while already.

I know that the Raptor XL has just been released, so a V-Raptor replacement anytime soon is unlikely (right?), but how about the komodo?

The Komodo was SUCH a good rental where I live, that I'm tempted to wait and spend less on the initial investment to get its new iteration.


Any opinions?

Cheers!

 

[Phil Holland]

I would say not exclusive to RED, but generally the digital cinema as well as some below that range cameras typically have a product cycle of 2-3 years in between models. Sometimes as many as 5 years. And I suspect things will move faster in the lower end of the pricing bracket as it's easier for people to rationalize sub $10K systems that frequently if they are making coin at all with their tools. 2 years or faster in some of those cases. I mean we see yearly refresh on various other things for sure.

Back to cinema cams. There's notable trends among manufacturers, and also important to track the quarter as well.

Couple of examples:

RED Monstro 8K VV Q4 2017 -> RED V-Raptor 8K VVQ4 2021 = 4 years
Sony Venice Q1 2018 -> Sony Venice 2 Q1 2021 = 3 years

In both of those cases the cameras were announced 1-3 months prior.

I think Alexa LF was announced Q1 2018, shipped much later. Mini LF was also a Q1 2019 announcement, and also shipped much later. A35 was 2022.

Market saturation and proximity to release certainly play a role in rental rates, but that's certainly not the whole story. I like to buy a camera usually within a 1-18 months after it's released to make a decent ROI. Most of the time I'm an early adopter. More cuts, but more to gain. But that's mainly for my projects, meaning I'm not a rental house, but rather a production company-ish.

Komodo was Q4 2020, but it's also a fairly inexpensive camera that fits in a specialty and ultra-compact realm as well. A full outfit can be made for sub $10K, certainly sub $15K. All depends on the kit you're building.

I bought a 2nd V-Raptor in 2022 after my first in 2021. Nearly a year apart. I needed to do that so the decision was fairly easy. Both cameras have paid themselves off as well as accessories.

I'd say aim for an ROI within 2 months to 2-3 years on any gear purchase depending on who you are and what you do. Some can make up to 5 years work. But it all depends on too many variables.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I would say that unless it's your primary source of income, you should wait to buy anything until you actually need it. For example, I don't plan to film anything until my first feature is done, although I've been tempted by several things over the past year and a half of post work. However, had I bought then, I would have missed out on surprises like the Nikon Z9 and Fuji XH2. My next feature will most likely be within the next year or two, scripts are still coming along so not 100 percent on which it will be but it will be something great and I want to be sure to have the best camera to film it with at the time and I haven't seen what that is quite yet but there's some top contenders so far but by NAB this year there could be Mark IIs or IIIs of various models and RED could always surprise with something at any time.

As far as Komodo goes, I would hold off as we're really starting to see things go to an all 8K stage of production hardware from the bottom up so I suspect Komodo won't be able to hold with only 6K for much longer.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would say that unless it's your primary source of income, you should wait to buy anything until you actually need it. For example, I don't plan to film anything until my first feature is done, although I've been tempted by several things over the past year and a half of post work. However, had I bought then, I would have missed out on surprises like the Nikon Z9 and Fuji XH2. My next feature will most likely be within the next year or two, scripts are still coming along so not 100 percent on which it will be but it will be something great and I want to be sure to have the best camera to film it with at the time and I haven't seen what that is quite yet but there's some top contenders so far but by NAB this year there could be Mark IIs or IIIs of various models and RED could always surprise with something at any time.

As far as Komodo goes, I would hold off as we're really starting to see things go to an all 8K stage of production hardware from the bottom up so I suspect Komodo won't be able to hold with only 6K for much longer.

Red and BMD is pretty much the only once doing anything above 6k. Tons of people are happy with arri 4 and a half K resolutions and many also use Sony Venice 6k FF but use it in 35s mode that leaves it in 4k... Blockbusters with unlimited budgets that is. Hardly any of them do the VFX work in 8k. If you are making a Film and it needs 8k to fly then for sure there is something wrong with it.

 

[Phil Holland]

I suspect Komodo

I would say that's far off from sage wisdom there. Particularly in a year where a new 4.6K camera is shipping.

The actual scenario is the market that I have been calling dynamic for years now requires cameras that do different things, sit at different pricing tiers, and are attractive to their respective audiences.

4K, 6K, 8K, whatever K - there is a place for it. It will sound perhaps the most humorous from me, but the majority of dynamic range tests online don't reveal the whole truth behind a camera and in some cases are performed incorrectly producing a somewhat damaging image on what a camera can do (or in the other direction, a glowing review not exploring pitfalls that will hit an everyday filmmaker). But IQ and DR are the two biggies for many if they aren't leaning on a specific brand.

And the key variable is the rest of the camera's features as those may lean into why somebody purchases a system outside of the sensor and image quality itself. Like frame rate or connectivity or whatever.

I'll have to dive into 8K VFX work at another time. Entering my 8th year of that being a normal thing. But I certainly know I'm not everybody when it comes to this, totally okay with that. Of interest where 6K and 8K cameras find some additional love is when they are needed/asked for/or used for VFX acquisition.

Long ago REDuser was home to high end image making professionals through novice filmmakers. Still is though we have basically 25 different places to connect now outside of here. And between both of those slices of bread is the majority of the working industry with leanings to various preferences. It's important to understand the POVs from that entire spectrum. I enjoy listening to much of the perspectives that are far outside of mine to gleam any tidbits, but for those around here for a long while, my hit ratio is pretty high to how our industry has evolved. Right now if you're omitting a market segment as a manufacturer it's either not apart of your business model, an undesirable market to cater to, a question of resources or cost/value assesssment, or something discussed yet not explored as of yet.

To that point, the market as a whole will make cameras for everybody at all sorts of feature specifications. There's a fairly large difference between entry level 6K, heck I'll throw action cams in there too, and cameras people will use to create actual work and rely on them professionally regularly.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

interesting note as it relates to product cycles, Raptor price has been raised, not sure how long ago, but it's about $500 more now than it was at launch $24995 now vs $24500 at launch, so if you were going that route, I'd try to hope on that train now before the price raises again. If your going for Komodo, I probably wouldn't hurt my head about an update soon, even though Komodo launched in 2020, not many were shipping because of the supply chain, Komodo was still back ordered going into 2022, Red makes money making cameras if cameras are selling what's the incentive to release a new model? I'd guess the end of 2024 for a Komodo update. Red seems to have 4-year gaps in between replacing a product, not to be confused with releasing a separate product. EG. Monstro and raptor and Helium to raptor s35, 1 was 4 years the other was almost 6 years, so you probably have nothing to worry about if your buying something right now.

 

[Luka Sanader]

owning Red now days is like owning Canon C500MK2. Unless you can make it work and you get your money back with that camera its risky. iths better to go in to depth, get a biz loan and by Arri if you have any intention to rent it out. Red it self is unpredictable and they are devaluating there own product.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Red and BMD is pretty much the only once doing anything above 6k. Tons of people are happy with arri 4 and a half K resolutions and many also use Sony Venice 6k FF but use it in 35s mode that leaves it in 4k... Blockbusters with unlimited budgets that is. Hardly any of them do the VFX work in 8k. If you are making a Film and it needs 8k to fly then for sure there is something wrong with it.

Didn't say it would need 8K+ but I'd like not to lock my film into anything less when 8K televisions are going to be in everybody's homes within a couple years if not sooner (depending on adoption and 4K upgrade rate). Just as there are stories about producers knocking "old sensors" even in regards to advanced RED cameras, those Arri cameras are going to get old and tired out once there's more 8K cameras in the game, just as Arri had to move beyond the HD Alexas. Tech will move forward, otherwise we'd all still be using Sony F35s and HD Alexas for the latest blockbuster films.

 

[Cedric Gall]

they are devaluating there own product.

They really are. Arris hold their value incredibly well because they are perfectly differentiated and because they're not in any sort of rush to release new cameras.

That said, I can't justify a 100k loan atm. I think I'd probably need something close to that and that's getting some cheap DZO Vespid glass.

I can get a pretty decent Raptor kit for 50k. And also, Reds are great rentals in my country. They probably get rented as often as a Mini LF, and tRed kits go for 1.5% of their value per day, which means that if it gets rented for 67 days, it pays for itself.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

Assessments about RED, Arri, Canon or even BMD holding their value or not, are greatly exaggerated.
Since I received my ST Komodo in late July 2020, I managed to push Alexa LF out of a number of big budget TVCs, documentaries, TV series and some film.
Until the summer of 2021, I had most local DPs asking for my Komodo, but ONLY if I was part of the production.
You know why that is?
Because RED cameras are vastly technical beasts and I could render an image like the "famed" Alexa look but with all the flexibility of R3D RAW.
On occasion I'd show up on a joined Alexa LF (A camera) and Komodo (B camera) production with my two Komodos and when there was a shortcoming with the Alexa, I'd pull out the second baby dragon and steal the show. Colorists ended up asking for it
Soon, other RED (DSMC2) cameras in local rental houses were requested, but they wanted me to join the production as a DIT, 2nd or 1st AC.
Since then I've been asked to rent my cameras and go along as a DP.

TLDR: Take the time to learn your tool(s), invest in REDucation and that will pay off more than an Arri that you have to get a loan on your house.
Producers, directors, DPs and pretty much everyone along the line will be grateful and you will enjoy your job even more!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Let's stipulate:

1) talent and skill are far more important than specs.

2) navigating camera product cycles effectively has a lot to do with your business model. I would add that changing recording media and ingest requirements can be just as important in picking your spot to upgrade as the camera's IQ.

FWIW, what seems to move the needle the most, at least in the LA market, is DPs and producers see ARRI as the safer choice. A proper DIT or dailies colorist is not always in the budget. To my eyes, the Alexa rec 709 output is already characterized to roughly mimic 5219 V2/3 which is what many clients perceive as "the" high end look. When somebody else is paying the camera rental house bill, and your job security is on the line... Like the old saying goes, nobody gets fired for choosing IBM.

As a craftsman making images, I prefer R3Ds for the volume of their raw captured image data. Others may have different priorities.

Cheers - #19