RED's push forward despite strong legacy cameras

[Phil Holland]

value

In my city, LA, there are many rental scenarios. I'd say about 2013 onward you could rent ARRI, RED, Sony, Canon at about 15-25% the going standard rental house rates. I have friends calling me that their being offered 1 or 2 day weeks for some types of work. That's insane as well. There are currently $2200/d Monstro kits still renting, but you can also find the exact opposite end of that spectrum. A blind LF rental year one was also $250/d.

I have a lot to say on this topic as it's constantly transforming, but the market devaluation has more to do with saturation, scale, and competition more than anything else. I'm in the hottest market where every tool is available from every rental house, owner/op, rental services, even the camera manufacturer, as well as production company owned gear. Been taking notes on a lot of this from the ownership perspective and where deals are often made and built on for exploitation.

Don't have all the answers for everybody in every market, but I waited nearly 13 years before purchasing a "big boy camera" because the value of ownership was higher than the proposition of renting 180-320 days of the year. Ownership of systems makes sense for many. For others, I don't know all their business models, expectations, or realities. Owning versus renting today is much more dynamic than last decade as well. The concept of ownership even makes more sense now and for some makes far less sense. Very interesting stuff. I'd even state in my case it was a bit of an educated leap in trajectory, but I had the experience, clients, and high proposition of building more clients. Even then I'd say there was probably 70/30 odds on it working out honestly. Especially the first 2-3 years.

There's other layers to all of this, especially as it pertains to the mass market commercial filmmaker (not meaning commercials by that description). Which I think actually alludes to much of how the landscape has developed.

 

[Luka Sanader]

... mass market commercial filmmaker (not meaning commercials by that description). Which I think actually alludes to much of how the landscape has developed.

this is another part of the inflation. I use to own Arri 16SR2 at the end of 1990's and beginning of the 2000's then when i moved to 35mm market i only had MOS 35mm that i was abel to push in as action cam on almost every prod. But hey 535B and Moviecam Compact used to cost 300k decked out and no one would even consider that DOP own one. Now days, i am 100% convinced that if i would not have my own camera i would not get any jobs. I am a bottom feeder, the camraman of micro budget and arthouse films and in my world there is alway a young lion, comercial and MV DOP with his own Alexa Mini who is ding for opportunity to have his first feature.
I would rather not have anything and be able to go to Panavision or major rentals for every film but that never happens with type of projects that i do.
I have no dilemma in "owning or not owning" as i know that in my situation i have to own. The question is what to have or more precise what not to have? As much as i love R3D, IPP2, Monstro and Komodo sensors... i feel that "loyalty" to this brand costed me some opportunity and to be labeled as "red guy". Recently one of the producers throw a joke at me "do you still have Red tatooed on your arm"? Its not even funny as i am really camera agnostic who gets dragged in to silly and uneducated discussions like: ""Fx6 VS Monstro" bias and hipster influenced red trashing.
i dont know if i can indure another 4 yers of arguing and convincing people if i commit to XL.

 

[Brian Timmons]

Recently one of the producers throw a joke at me "do you still have Red tatooed on your arm"? Its not even funny as i am really camera agnostic who gets dragged in to silly and uneducated discussions like: ""Fx6 VS Monstro" bias and hipster influenced red trashing.
i dont know if i can indure another 4 yers of arguing and convincing people if i commit to XL.

If you're getting comments like that you're likely dealing with a crowd that has a deeply hostile attitude towards anything RED that is clearly nothing to do with the capability of the camera and what you can accomplish with it.
That attitude alone is a red flag (no pun intended) and perhaps a harbinger of things to come in dealing with them.

I heard a wise man once say "If I can't change the people around me, I change the people around me."

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Björn Benckert]

to add oil on the fire, today i had a conversation with a producer who offered me 750$ for a week rental of Monstro calling it legacy Red. "I wont pay 1500 a week for something that sales for 9000 now days". For next 15 minutes of our conversation i had to explain model differences, rental process of "old" Reds that no one wants and so on...
I have no clue how did we end up like this and how did over night my Monstro become labeled as obsolete and undesirable camera.
I am not talking about resale value on the use market only. It seems that DSMC2 in general is devaluated in rentals and it is becoming really hard to convince producers and directors to use it any more.

this is real paradox: On one side i have super reliable, trouble free, 8k, Vista Vision, 60fps, Raw shooting camera that is excellent in low light and produces stunning image that no one wants and that is so devaluated that i can only pass it as B-cam or rent it out for low budget projects. On the other side we have Arri Mini that looks good but its bad in low light and its not even 4k still rents and still is gold standard.

Red is the dead end! If Red has any future that will be in Komodo style, inexpensive but potent camera for personal use. I know for sure that i wont give 1$ more for new Red cameras

My monstro is out for 18 shooting days this month subrented by a big rental house. Pretty much only brain with 4 Kippertie mags, PL/ND mount and Touch screen. I get 750USD per shooting day. So not really a paper weight in this neck of the woods. As I see it people now start to realise what RED 8k actually is. They now all shot the LF and bounced into the frame rate limitations, the cumbersome raw handling proxy making etc. Monstro got the framrates, easy data management and also more and more of the DP´s I talk to are now feed up with the arri look, they go for Sony Venice and now also more and more RED and monstro in particular.

People also seam to slowly start to grasp what Komodo can do, Super small, stupidly long battery and recording times and most of all the global shutter. Today I got a mail from those that rent my Komodo (body with 2 mags, 4 little canon red batteries and a Kippertie PL/ND mount, vaxis Vlock wireless Komodo module) that they want it until 27/9 and they are happy to have me charging them for 19 more shooting days. This rental alone pays off the cost for my Komodo and the included paraphernalia which I all used heavily before this rental and will likely use for a long time forward.

Both these rentals goes trough a bigger rental house and is covered by their insurance etc. and I only deal with their booking girls and don't have to worry about catering for AC´s testing gear days or clients misshaps or what ever.

If the producer says that he will pay you 750USD for monstro a week tell him to rent such camera but from someone else and that you be happy to operate it. Likely he then will start to negotiate a bit higher. A producers main job is to meet the budget, the only way they can do that is by trying to negotiate everything that can be negotiable. Film crew usually have their set day rates and even if not in a union there is often a praxis for price that everyone in the area follows. For film gear on the other hand it's very often wide open to cut deals and do what ever, so that's what the producers do. Don't fall for it.


Regarding the minimags and media for dsmc2. I think it would be such a kick ass move if RED decided to just let go of the mininags. Simply sell the minimag shells for what ever they cost to make with a resonable markup and then remove the software lock in the firmware so we could just use what ever of the shelf sata SSD in there. Or atleast let us do it with slightly more limited bitrate if they are worried we would use ssd´s that did not cope with bitrates.

And for CFast cards, there are CFast to sata conversion boards out there, they don't cost much. So as I see it red could easily do a DSMC2 CFast side module I think those that has a lot of such cards around would appreciate it and I'm sure such module would bring a lot of goodwill to the RED brand.

https://swe.grandado.com/products/cf...nQ6OTYyNDU5NDA

 

[Mike P.]

OP: Some of the more biased RED advocates tend to confuse “fixes" as "improvements", but when they're for flaws that shouldn’t have made it to release in the first place it's not really helpful and leaves a long lasting bad-taste in the mouths of previous customers/users. Similarly, when RED doesn’t have the all kinks worked out/industry standard accessories/all the features enabled *years* into their products’ already short lifecycles, it’s no wonder RED’s “constantly in beta” reputation persists and why the resale (and rental) value tanks faster than most. RED have never been good at follow-through. Instead, they're constantly rolling-releases to *fix* previous-gen flaws and that continues to hold down the value of the cameras and the brand. (Inflated paper specs and having to jump through post hoops also doesn’t help.)

Luka: with that Venice~FX6 vs Monstro example, the FX6 probably would’ve been a better fit; built-in ND, way better battery life, decent built-in IO/Audio, and better storage efficiency would’ve made production at least a 10~20% faster, and easier to chew through 4k 10-bit files would’ve made editing/post quicker, too... It actually is a better tool for ultra-low-budget indie jobs in most cases (and that isn't even taking into consideration how much better the FX6 would be with a presumably anemic low-budget lighting package). In that segment, the path of least resistance/ease of use pays dividends as it'll allow you to make days with far less struggle/headaches... In other words, what incentive does the producer have to use your RED kit? It's more cumbersome and costs more, plus the footage won't be distinguishably better.

Conversely, as Björn mentioned, if you were subrenting at one your city's bigger rental houses, I would think a Monstro pkg would still be making money unless they've replaced their RED fleet with Raptors (but I don't think that happened because of sensor-split).

 

[Phil Holland]

long lasting bad-taste in the mouths of previous customers/users

Without throwing other manufacturers under the bus by name, notable issues have also been "fixed" generation to generation of other camera systems. Some via firmware, some vie physical hardware or optics as well.

I've generally chosen the path of not crapping on everybody else's investments or tools, but there's a long, long list that mainly due to this being a public forum that is RED centric without much conversation related to other camera's nuanced issues have gone swept under the rug mainly. But if you dig on the net or have worked with these systems along the way, lots of things have transpired.

I think more based truth is people here, at least myself, show tests and improvements or not. At least voice concerns or recommend best practices to avoid certain things. The OG Orb Reflection issue with point sources at deep stops is a fantastic example of that. But we didn't do much to call out similar or other optical artifacts from manufacturers. Didn't do much to discuss insanely weird blue channel issues. Didn't discuss mechanical failures. Didn't discuss footage artifacts. didn't acknowledge other camera's seams despite the manufacturers mentioning it, etc. I mean there's stuff that isn't even pursued anymore because real world use and feedback, which has been the hardest pill for a couple companies to digest. I turned down purchasing a couple of systems due to costly post VFX fixes that would be needed in some cases as well.

RED will get the short end of the stick it seems in many conversations, but for those who know the rest of the story or have been bitten by the the things that have mostly gone "unmentioned" as things were fixed in a newer model or whatever, whelp. It's a history for those who lived it mainly. And most of the progression of digital to now and beyond is representative of steps and hurdles related to reaching higher and doing more with systems than where they were previously.

It's an oddity because in the earlies days of RED, beyond the resolution, sensor size, and manageable data rates being notable selling points, another big one was color on various systems of the era were awful in comparison. Certainly more notable to where we are today as well.

That's too based though for the confused and angry. But it is the way it is.

 

[Zack Birlew]

This does bring up the fact about legacy RED cameras in that they have been, more or less, perfected by the time they have been discontinued and what a value that puts into them as filmmaking tools! If RED could take advantage of this by opening the older cameras up further with unlocked media options, there may not be as much stigma in using an older RED camera versus other options. Even though they may not fit in the current high rental ranks of modern cameras, they would be a perfect step up from the Blackmagic Pocket 4K/6K and DSLR/Mirrorless crowd and that’s not a bad group to be in at all!

The unfortunate truth is that RED did get a “constant beta” reputation earlier on and that apparently hasn’t gone away but moves like this could help undo the damage. Oddly enough, the cameras that RED may not see much action with on the used market will be their current Komodo and Raptor cameras. Say what you will but none of the problems with legacy cameras I’ve heard about have matched the completely damaging problems like Komodo’s connector design mishaps and Raptor’s split sensor. Imagine years from now somebody comes along to a used Komodo or Raptor and they connect the wrong thing to the Komodo or encounter the split sensor issue and think the cameras are defective or damaged. Now, a used RED One, DSMC1, or DSMC2 and those cameras will keep on trucking until a video or power board goes bad for some reason or a cooling fan goes out, all of which aren’t likely occurrences when babied, but finding media will indeed be a problem.

If nothing else, the excitement and press behind a resurgence in older RED cameras would be great PR and increase interest in the brand.

 

[Luka Sanader]

OP:

Luka: with that ...FX6 ... It actually is a better tool for ultra-low-budget indie jobs in most cases (and that isn't even taking into consideration how much better the FX6 would be with a presumably anemic low-budget lighting package). In that segment, the path of least resistance/ease of use pays dividends as it'll allow you to make days with far less struggle/headaches... In other words, what incentive does the producer have to use your RED kit? It's more cumbersome and costs more, plus the footage won't be distinguishably better.
.

Mike, in some way i would agree but in my particular realty that is not the case. Despite all the disadvantages of using Monstro VS Fx6 this is where producer benefits gravy. Exsample: i just shoot ultra low budget gangster drama, feature on Monstro and Xelmus. My entire lighting package was 10 Astera Titans, one Light Matt, 2x Aperture 1200, one aperture Leco and one dedolight. thats all i had and 60% of the film is in lowlight. Monstor 8k 6:5 in 5:1 compression and LowLight OLPF @ 2000ASA produced far more pleasant to eye result then Alexa LF at 1600. i didnt test FX6 for this job but i am 100% sure that even if we would gain one or two extra stops (that i actually didnt need) we would have different looking image. this film had tiny budget but it looks like Cinema and i think Monstro+Xelmus_ Lomo Roundfornts made huge advantage. if this was shoot FX6+ Sirui under the same condition it would look as web series for sure

in the other words producers benefits form the better camera. less money we have more it matters.

 

[Luka Sanader]

...constant beta... Oddly enough, the cameras that RED may not see much action with on the used market will be their current Komodo and Raptor cameras...

Komodo/DSMC3 still dont have a EVF and DSMC2 EVF was HUGE disappointment, so imagine for all of us that EVF is a must how tired are we by now. Look at omne moment i had Bomb OLED when ti was still about 2k on used market and brand new DSMC2 EVF that costed about 4k so with 6000USD i ended up buying Zacuto Gratical as this was only way thtat i could actually able to adjust image. I got so mad by the fact that i have 6k in Red EVF,s and i have to go DSLR route and fiddle with SDI cables and power cables and canon batteries... wile my ultra fancy cableless EVF sits in a case... I got so mad that over this EVF issue that i almost diched entire Helium/ Monochrom system over this issue.
and now here we go again. one year in there is no top pogo for Komodo and no EVF option.
another example Red did H2O OLPF but instead of taking full advantage of having interchangeable OLPF we never had any false color near IR, IR or UV, or behind the lens filtration as LC or BMP/ Glimmer type of product that KipperTie started to offer...

it is constant Beta and there was so much potential that DSMC2 becomes the gold standard its the Industry.

 

[Neil Abeynayake]

it is constant Beta and there was so much potential that DSMC2 becomes the gold standard its the Industry.

Couldn't have said any better. Someone dropped the ball at RED on that "gold standard in the industry" part.

 

[Phil Holland]

Here's a valid question. Would you rather RED only provide release builds with no beta features inside the firmware? I'm certain they can go that route.

Then you would just get firmware updates like every other manufacturer about 2-4 times a year as new features are added. No previews, no hints to what's coming or being worked on. No way to provide general feedback until release.

I imagine they would do a closed beta like the other manufacturers do, so normal users wouldn't have access to those features for months if not longer.

 

[Mestizo Devon]

Here's a valid question. Would you rather RED only provide release builds with no beta features inside the firmware? I'm certain they can go that route.

Then you would just get firmware updates like every other manufacturer about 2-4 times a year as new features are added. No previews, no hints to what's coming or being worked on. No way to provide general feedback until release.

I imagine they would do a closed beta like the other manufacturers do, so normal users wouldn't have access to those features for months if not longer.

I'm waiting since march for a Komodo build...... So have they started that already? Almost 6mos.... I'd like to see all bodies get updates at the same time..... Figure out a way to improve a body, put it in all bodies that can handle it, day 1.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm waiting since march for a Komodo build...... So have they started that already? Almost 6mos.... I'd like to see all bodies get updates at the same time..... Figure out a way to improve a body, put it in all bodies that can handle it, day 1.

The two current gen cameras are different cameras more so than ever before. DSMC2 was able to get "universal" feature updates, but even then the different sensors and brains required their own thing.

Komodo and Raptor are more different than that even. Though both DSMC3 bodies, two very different cameras in terms of hardware, capabilities, and all that.

Jarred mentioned in an interview recently there's a firmware update coming in Q3/Q4 for Komodo. Komodo's last release firmware was March 2022. Sounds like some AF feature additions, improvements, and probably a couple more things like REDCODE ELQ possibly.

 

[Mestizo Devon]

The two current gen cameras are different cameras more so than ever before. DSMC2 was able to get "universal" feature updates, but even then the different sensors and brains required their own thing.

Komodo and Raptor are more different than that even. Though both DSMC3 bodies, two very different cameras in terms of hardware, capabilities, and all that.

Jarred mentioned in an interview recently there's a firmware update coming in Q3/Q4 for Komodo. Komodo's last release firmware was March 2022. Sounds like some AF feature additions, improvements, and probably a couple more things like REDCODE ELQ possibly.

Dig it! Different even more so than power/memory and I/O, different system architecture? I've been fine with firmware updates, this one is a little painful to wait on....