How did Claudio Miranda's test go?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

It was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

CLAUDIO:"4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23."
CLAUDIO: Red has "Less dynamic range" then F23.


Uhm... Maybe I should stick with Kodak Vision 3 until Red has a chance to catch up.

You are free to do what ever you want.

I will stick with RED.

 

[I Bloom]

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

This issue was first apparent in the footage that Rocket posted from New Zealand a couple of month ago. Apparently by moving the IR/LP filter forward a few milimeters, the flare issue has improved in the new bodies. I'd love to see a test.

I think the most interesting thing about Cluadio's test is the difference in dynamic range. It's very visible in the tunnel shots. Since one trades highlight crushing for noise depending on how the image is rated. I'm wondering about these details. The F23 is a 14bit ADC. I'm wondering if you get all that data when you are recording.

IBloom

 

[Jannard]

CLAUDIO:"4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23."
CLAUDIO: Red has "Less dynamic range" then F23.


Uhm... Maybe I should stick with Kodak Vision 3 until Red has a chance to catch up.

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

• 4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23. Possibly due to the camera I received that may of had a poorly collimated PL mount. The demo footage they sent looked sharper than my footage, so this may be the case. But then again I am judging the camera at hand.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

 

[Joe Vinson]

The RED stills do look a bit more "video-ish." I'm not sure it's something I would have seen without the side-by-side comparison, and there's a lot you could do with color correction of course, but it's more noticeable than I would have guessed.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Great to hear, Jim!

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

For all of you with RED vs. F23 I would suggest to blow up F23 image to 4K and then to compare with RED.

Then we could talk about dynamic range, etc...

Here the size matters.

Just do it first in Photoshop.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

• 4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23. Possibly due to the camera I received that may of had a poorly collimated PL mount. The demo footage they sent looked sharper than my footage, so this may be the case. But then again I am judging the camera at hand.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

Hi Jim,

So the second camera Claudio received with a prototype new lens mount may have had FFD issues, or did I miss something.

Stephen

 

[Manfred Lopez]

I was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

You are free to do what ever you want.

I will stick with RED.

I am just reacting to a test that a very respected DP just posted like 5 minutes ago. The Red does show some short comings. I still love the Red project. But I would also like to be objective when it comes to real abilities to each Camera System.

The most interesting thing to me right now is the dynamic range of each camera format, because this will directly impact my lighting budget since we will have a lot of night scenes. Please don't hate me for what Claudio has posted. It's HIS findings, not mine.

P.S. Claudio, thanks a million for the Test. It helps people like me on the brink of production to make better informed decisions.

 

[Finner]

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

It was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

If it was fixed that long ago why did red send out cameras that it had not been fixed with. Red knew it was a head to head test why not send out your best cameras?

 

[Manfred Lopez]

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

Jim

Jim, you are right. I should have posted the whole of it. I assumed everyone here is or will be reading all of Claudio's test. I was simply making a reference to that area to the test.

In the end I am just going by the images. And so far they speak louder than any words and that is what will stick in people's minds. I am someone who is desperately trying to consider between Red, Another HD format, or Super 16mm for an upcoming feature. The problem I see so far is that the Red is still not completely finished and I have to make a decision soon. I am still leaning towards Red at this point. I am on your side, but I am still trying to be objective about this whole thing.

 

[Jannard]

If it was fixed that long ago why did red send out cameras that it had not been fixed with. Red knew it was a head to head test why not send out your best cameras?

Good question... we made an error. Pretty simple. We are camera and manpower short and grabbed a camera that didn't have the fix. The fact that the mount was out (even though it was a prototype) is inexcusable. We have apologized to Claudio and he has been gracious enough to offer to retest a new camera as soon as we can get one there.

Keeping track of which cameras had which upgrades was one of the reasons we decided to just replace all cameras 1-100.

We are not perfect... this is a good example.

Claudio did everything right. We didn't.

Jim

 

[Manfred Lopez]

For all of you with RED vs. F23 I would suggest to blow up F23 image to 4K and then to compare with RED.

Then we could talk about dynamic range, etc...

Here the size matters.

Just do it first in Photoshop.

I thought dynamic range was independent of resolution. So what would all this accomplish?

 

[Jarred Land]

Claudio did not have a "new" camera as defined as the ones that we will ship later this month. It did not have the new sensor settings, the new DSP, the new cold fix, and it had one of the early prototypes of the new mount (I think). We have offered Claudio to test the "new" camera as soon as they are finished. But he did test an "old" camera.

Jim

Jim is correct.. Claudio used the first prototype of the new mount on an old camera.. it wasn't even anodized so the internals where all silver. It also did not include the new low pass filter, which will help tremendously on multiple issues addressed.

Claudio was wonderful and very patient and understanding along the entire ride across multiple tests, and we look forward to working closely with him and his team when the new cameras roll out.

 

[Evin Grant]

I think he's talking about the updated cameras having the new "Fix" that's supposed to add DR and reduce some noise.

 

[I Bloom]

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

I'm thinking that some of the difference might be in the post workflow. Or in how the test was exposed. That's what I'm trying to learn.

Graeme said at some point that more bits wouldn't be helpful since they would be lost in the noise floor. I'm still trying to understand his reasoning.

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism. We need to ask these questions, so that we know how to use these tools.

Ian

 

[Jannard]

I'm thinking that some of the difference might be in the post workflow. Or in how the test was exposed. That's what I'm trying to learn.

Graeme said at some point that more bits wouldn't be helpful since they would be lost in the noise floor. I'm still trying to understand his reasoning.

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism.

Ian

I am OK that our $17,500 camera, with known issues that are now addressed, competes favorably with a $250K camera. I am keen to see the same test with our new cameras.

Jim

 

[Manfred Lopez]

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism.

Ian

I hope not. I view this as a very good opportunity to learn what all the issues are so I can communicate better with the DP's that I work with. I know Red & Company in the end will embrace all objective criticism and better their camera.

 

[Finner]

Hi Jim,

So the second camera Claudio received with a prototype new lens mount may have had FFD issues, or did I miss something.

Stephen

I have not seen or heard of one red camera that the FFD was correctly collimated from factory. In fact I have heard of a lot of focus pullers getting burned because of it. Thank goodness there is a new mount, I look forward to it having a lot higher QC then the previous ones.

BTW I have not heard of the red dot flare problem being fixed.

All this said a complete red package is close to only 10% of the cost of a f23. In my books it did very well but I do not expect it to be able to outperform a f23, f35, genesis or viper. If it comes close to even contending in the same group with any of these cameras red has done very well. Look at the price difference all of these others start at the $100,000 range for a complete camera without lenses. You get what you pay for and what we are getting for $17,500 is very good.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I thought dynamic range was independent of resolution. So what would all this accomplish?

I don't know exactly but...

Try to shoot SD 4:4:4 and then blow up to 2K or 4K.

Or do a simple test with DSLR.

Shoot resolution about HD size and then blow up to 4K.

Just have a look.

And that's about shooting with RED in 4K.

Find here at REDUSER forum the posts by Graeme Nattress and he described all that very nice as a main RED scientist.

 

[Finner]

I think he's talking about the updated cameras having the new "Fix" that's supposed to add DR and reduce some noise.

Yep thats what I was talking about.

 

[Karl H]

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.


Jim

great that you've improved DR in the new builds. Would you say it's now on par with the F23?