Cineform 4K solution?

[liquidigital]

Thanks David. It definitely can be daunting trying to pick a route. What's interesting is that it seems to begin with the post house and not the other way around. I want to do things right from jumpstreet, correct workflow from inception to deliverables.

 

[Don King]

Paolo,

I'm not sure we answered your question. Think of the "2K" and "4K" numbers within CineForm products as the output render resolution. Prospect 4K will render at spatial resolutions up to 4K RGB (12-bit CineForm 444). Prospect 2K will render at spatial resolutions up to 2K RGB (12-bit CineForm 444). We think many 4K Red shooters will finish in 2K, so Prospect 2K will be the right product.

Does that answer your question?

But can we finish in 4K on a fast laptop, right?

 

[David Newman]

But can we finish in 4K on a fast laptop, right?

Hello, Hello, ... is this thing working? How else can you say, Yes! You can finish on any processor that supports SSE2 instructions, and P4 will do it, the issue is primarily the usability. So a fast laptop will work much better than an old P4, but not as well as a modern workstation.

 

[till]

first David you are great, thank you again.

would it be possible to do a offfline with fcp ( better workflow, better features for offline, my opinion)...then export via RedCine a cineform 2 or 4 k RGB 444 dpx and then finish with Prospect 2k/$K AE CS3 on a MAC ( PC would be also ok too)? I think so.

You told me your are just developing the mac issue. Just in theorie...and if yes, when will it be available?

 

[David Newman]

The CineForm 444 for the Mac is out now, so that is not the issue, we have been wrapping up the CineForm RAW support yet has been only Windows based for the last 18 months. A expect your workflow will be a common one. Do an offline in DVCPRO (so similar) then export the source to CineForm 444 and conform in AE or CS3 Premiere. Of course you can use CineForm 444 during the edit it you want to bypass the conform step, but the file are a little bigger.

 

[till]

Ok i think until FCP and Color are not good enough for finishing i will present my bosses the cineform route.

So it should be mac based...
what would you recommand as NLE workstation ( hardware/ Software) for finishing 2k? is ist possible to finish before x-mas in 4k ?

( which product of cineform is needed, for which i should wait for finishing 4k mac based).


i know this is somekind of stupud question...but i dont know better...sorry for taking your time

 

[David Newman]

NEO 2K comes with both PC and Mac licenses to CineForm 444 up to 2048x2048. We have NEO 4K now (in house) that has an unlimited encoding resolution, i.e. 4k+ x 4K+. So 4K finishing on a Mac (at least a Mac Pro) is very likely before x-mas, all we need is a friendly Redcine.

 

[till]

i hope red will do it...because i think scratch is a very good tool, but with Neo4k and finishing 4k before x-mas affordable represents the red idea for now.

question: Redcine or Redalert are not transferring to Cineform RAW at the moment or am i missing something?

How will I transcode the REDCODE RAW into CINEFORM RAW?

 

[M Most]

But can we finish in 4K on a fast laptop, right?

You guys all seem to be seeking the magic pill that will give you everything you want for free or next to it. It doesn't exist. What you might be able to technically do doesn't have any bearing if it doesn't allow you to do it with reliability, predictability, and quality. Saying something is "4K" doesn't automatically make it a quality product, or even representative of what it could have/should have been. Proper monitoring during color correction (especially if you're going to record to film, which requires very specific monitoring and colorspace conditions), proper monitoring for technical problems, eyes that can actually see and diagnose these problems and tools to analyze them - all of these things are necessary to produce a deliverable that's useful. "Finishing 4K on a laptop" doesn't provide any of that. One can technically do a "4K finish" from material shot with a cell phone. But does that actually make any sense? No, and "finishing 4K on a laptop" makes just about as much sense.

And I haven't even mentioned that the needs of editing and the needs of finishing are two very different things.

 

[liquidigital]

You guys all seem to be seeking the magic pill that will give you everything you want for free or next to it. It doesn't exist. What you might be able to technically do doesn't have any bearing if it doesn't allow you to do it with reliability, predictability, and quality. Saying something is "4K" doesn't automatically make it a quality product, or even representative of what it could have/should have been. Proper monitoring during color correction (especially if you're going to record to film, which requires very specific monitoring and colorspace conditions), proper monitoring for technical problems, eyes that can actually see and diagnose these problems and tools to analyze them - all of these things are necessary to produce a deliverable that's useful. "Finishing 4K on a laptop" doesn't provide any of that. One can technically do a "4K finish" from material shot with a cell phone. But does that actually make any sense? No, and "finishing 4K on a laptop" makes just about as much sense.

And I haven't even mentioned that the needs of editing and the needs of finishing are two very different things.

Not me. I have a laptop. I use it to write. I've got a small budget towards post, but what I want to determine is whether to spend the money purchasing my own home finishing center (so that I can utilize it for future projects) or allocate it toward a post house where it could only be done once.

 

[David Newman]

While finishing on a laptop is far from ideal, and it no way recommended, it is hardly impossible. Having seen films finished in After Effects for film out, this no doubt commodity tools can be used for the limited budget. You do need a calibrated display, and a colorist help would be absolutely preferred. But the same goes for with someone using a workstation, or their own Scratch or Speedgrade setup, the tools don't make the filmmaker.

 

[Don King]

You guys all seem to be seeking the magic pill that will give you everything you want for free or next to it. It doesn't exist. What you might be able to technically do doesn't have any bearing if it doesn't allow you to do it with reliability, predictability, and quality. Saying something is "4K" doesn't automatically make it a quality product

Who didn't say it? You just did.

 

[Don King]

While finishing on a laptop is far from ideal, and it no way recommended, it is hardly impossible.

??

Sorry my english doesn't understand. Seems to me you're saying is that impossible? Finishing on a laptop, impossible? Is that so?

Elaborate...

Please? Thanks.

 

[Roberto B]

Having seen films finished in After Effects for film out, this no doubt commodity tools can be used for the limited budget.

i don't know after effects.. does it allow color correcting/grading?.. in 4k with cineform?..

edit
now, the sacramental question (or should i say the magic pill?.. just kidding mmost, just kidding..) from a laptop (NOT kidding!) ?

 

[Antoine Baumann]

You can also record the CineForm 444 file to HDCam SR through a dual-link HD-SDI card if that is a preferred deliverable.

Hi,

Which HD-SDI cards are compatible? What about HD-SDI monitoring?

Thanks,
antoine

 

[John Tissavary]

>>i don't know after effects.. does it allow color correcting/grading?.. in 4k with cineform?.. edit now, the sacramental question (or should i say the magic pill?.. just kidding mmost, just kidding..) from a laptop (NOT kidding!) ?<<

After effects has a set of color correcting tools and works in 16bpp colorspace, and there are some fantastic color plug-ins (Magic Bullet being my fave) for it. It will run on a laptop. It's compositing, not editing software. For editing Premiere Pro is the Adobe software solution, and you can interchange project files & timelines between the two almost seamlessly.

But finishing 4k in AE on a laptop would ___SUCK___. I'd rather have bamboo splinters shoved under my fingernails. Ok, maybe that's an exaggeration... but plan to have zen-buddhist-like patience and -at least- a well calibrated CRT monitor for color correction.

Mikes comment about finishing 4k from a cellphone makes a very appropriate point: you can't see enough information from a laptop screen to effectively color correct. Period. It's like trying to read a book that's missing every third or fourth word.


cheers,

jt

 

[Mr. Paul White]

But finishing 4k in AE on a laptop would ___SUCK___. I'd rather have bamboo splinters shoved under my fingernails. Ok, maybe that's an exaggeration... but plan to have zen-buddhist-like patience and -at least- a well calibrated CRT monitor for color correction.

Mikes comment about finishing 4k from a cellphone makes a very appropriate point: you can't see enough information from a laptop screen to effectively color correct. Period. It's like trying to read a book that's missing every third or fourth word.

I thing that's already clear the need of external calibrated monitoring or a proper one. This is NOT more an excuse for bashing the laptop solution. I also have the same doubt of Don about this Mr. Newman's quote:

>> While finishing on a laptop is far from ideal, and it no way recommended, it is hardly impossible. <<

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

this thread is great but getting too long to read in one day:help:
Could anyone summarise the advantages of working in Cineform instead of REDCODE? Are there any disadvantages? Is there any loss when transcoding? How long does it take to transcode (say an 8 Core machine 4 Gb of RAM)?

Thanks amigos..:clown2:

 

[David Newman]

I thing that's already clear the need of external calibrated monitoring or a proper one. This is NOT more an excuse for bashing the laptop solution. I also have the same doubt of Don about this Mr. Newman's quote:

>> While finishing on a laptop is far from ideal, and it no way recommended, it is hardly impossible. <<

My quote is missing a couple of words.

While finishing on a laptop is far from ideal, and it is in no way recommended, it is hardly impossible.

I'm saying it is NOT impossible. Saying anything is impossible is pretty sort sighted these days. Laptops can have the performance, the disk space, the disk speed if configured correctly. Yes, an external calibrated display is highly recommended, maybe even required.

 

[David Newman]

this thread is great but getting too long to read in one day:help:
Could anyone summarise the advantages of working in Cineform instead of REDCODE? Are there any disadvantages? Is there any loss when transcoding? How long does it take to transcode (say an 8 Core machine 4 Gb of RAM)?

Thanks amigos..:clown2:

CineForm has an well estistablished Adobe suite workflow that many are desiring. Redcode isn't there yet. I sure this the a strong pull towards our products. One the Redcode workflow is more complete I sure there will be other comparisons, but at this point that would be speculation.

"Is there any loss when transcoding?"

Always, but does it matter, no. Even converting 12-bit linear Redcode to 10-bit Log DPX is lossy, but you don't see this loss. Same goes for CineForm, which is designed with these conversions and for multigeneration workflows. Lots of quality analysis data on our web site http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm and my blog http://cineform.blogspot.com/technology/

"How long does it take to transcode?"

CineForm is fast, even real-time on that class of PC, transcode times will depend on Redcine decode abilities, and the speed it can demosaic and output frames. Today this is unknown.