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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon....

Mark Toia said:
Hi Guys...

Both Jarred and Jim know that I don't pull many punches. So for them to send me their camera, must mean that they are extremely confident in the new sensors capabilities.
But lets be serious for a second, I'm not expecting miracles, like having noise free images at 10,000ASA or 20+ stops of DR, thats just plain silly.
But that said, my expectations are high and I'm going into this test with an open mind.

And to be clear... Jarred and Jim have not in anyway way asked me or pressured me or made me sign any crazy letters saying that I have to only say good things.
Jarred is not sending the camera with a team of techs, lawyers (and hit men) to make sure I shoot and say exactly the way they want
Jarred has pretty much sent it to me to test with no strings attached knowing that I will probably share my no BS testing with you all.
That said... I'm not going to be a dick !. I will share my views and the real world advantages that I require for my shooting style. I'm not going to crap on about pixels and colour sciences as that's best left for the pixel peeping nerds to fight over.

I'm going to push the camera to its extreme limits in 3 areas that I'd personally like to see a real difference in.

1. Hi ISO low light noise, just how useable is 2000iso, 4000iso and upwards, 6k will obviously yield the best results, especially when down-converted to HD... but what about 5k & 4k... Say if I want to shoot 150 to 200FPS slo-motion at night in low light, can I do that with less noise ? How much cleaner is this sensor compared to the last.

2. I'll be shooting a lot of hi contrast scenes, I really want to know exactly how much useable information can i retrieve out of a shot that maybe up to 10 - 12 stops between bright sunlight and dark shadows. Will I be able to see the difference straight up or do I have to window out what I need and pull up in the grade. Either which way, I'll be putting a lot of time into this part of the test.

3. We all know that all Digital cameras (yes Arri included) loose information in the very bright highlights. I'm just wondering how much information is actually hiding within these blown out highlights and can I retrieve any of it. Or better yet, If I expose only for those highlights, how much info can I dig out of the rest of the shot that maybe now in darkness. Shooting silver cars in the middle of the day in bright sunlight is not easy on any sensor. Lets see what we can get.
The monochrome was amazing in this test, I'm hoping the Dragon will equal it.

The Skin color argument over the years was absolute bullshit. I've never had the issue, never seen the issue. I've shot more shades and tones of skin than most people due to my global travels... and still yet to see the problem. I will be shooting some faces, but not for this reason.

I'll be very happy if the technology leap is as high as what it was between the first REDONE M 4k sensor and the current EPIC - MX 5k, that was quite a leap...

That all said, I applaud Jarred & Jim's confidence in loaning their baby to someone like me as I'm not a technical tester, or an academy award winner, I'm more the real world guy that travels the planet smashing out project after project. My needs are heavy and diverse and I'm spoilt for choice, I don't have budget problems so I can afford any camera I want and so far the RED EPIC has ticked more boxes for me than any other camera on the market today. The Dragon sensor upgrade should take it to the next level, and thats what I'm excited about seeing over the next week.

But at the end of the day I'm just like one of you, out there pushing the camera to the limits each day wanting to know that for $9500 dollars, will I then be armed with the best tool technology can offer me for the best price, heading well into the future.

I'll get back to you soon.

Cheers Guys.
Click to expand...

That's all I personally want to hear, Mark. Looking forward to your sharing!
 
Mark,

I like this attitude and forthrightness. We know you will bitch slap us with what counts. IMAGES! And you make nice ones.

I'm looking forward to doing some testing when I have mine in hand but I'm sure the preview you provide will be as straight up and honest as your images and your style.

David
 
Mark Toia said:
The Skin color argument over the years was absolute bullshit. I've never had the issue, never seen the issue. I've shot more shades and tones of skin than most people due to my global travels... and still yet to see the problem. I will be shooting some faces, but not for this reason.
.
Click to expand...

Never bought into the skin tones either, but I do struggle with the red channel quite a lot and I have easily seen people screw up shots even though they try to grade it correctly. Almost always seen good results from the Alexa though. I don't know if it's because of Red's prices that more unexperienced cinematographers and colorists get their hands on it and screw footage up or if it really is a problem. I do know that in my own experience, the red channel is really sensitive to errors. Because of redish tones in skin I believe it's because of that it's been mistaken to be related to skin tones.
I on the other hand see it in reds across the image, not just skin tones. Why it's harder to get a good result from Red then Alexa might be because of the color science and base look of the camera but I really hope it will get easier.

As an example, I didn't really like the orange/warm look in Contagion or almost no other who shot red going for a warm/orange look. But I really like the warm look in Skyfall (Shanghai) and other shots in a warm setting on the Alexa. Doesn't matter the cinematographer or type of grade, the Red almost always fail in warmer looks compared to the Alexa. That just might be my personal opinion, but hearing so many others struggle with red tones I think it might be something to improve.
 
Mark Toia said:
The Skin color argument over the years was absolute bullshit. I've never had the issue, never seen the issue. I've shot more shades and tones of skin than most people due to my global travels... and still yet to see the problem. I will be shooting some faces, but not for this reason.
Click to expand...

I too have NEVER seen a color issue with my Epic-X. Thanks for this no BS comment Mark and I look
forward to seeing your no BS tests. Have fun!
 
I think the revisions in RED colour science for the MX sensor demonstrate that REDs model for color determination is being fine tuned.

If the Bayer filter over Blue pixels in the sensor allows out-of-band red wavelengths through ... determination if the pixel is blue, may be dependent on neighbouring Red pixels readings. Years of perfecting colour science on land may still lead to unexpected 'guesses' in the water - or when IR pollutes the sensor image.

REDs improved IR rejection and new RGB filtering should make colour determination less ambiguous; And with lower chanel noise, give greater certainty when those uncertainties occur.

Hopefully this will mean the Dragon colour science 'kills it (even more) when you first fire her up.

AJ
 
Antony Newman said:
I think the revisions in RED colour science for the MX sensor demonstrate that REDs model for color determination is being fine tuned.

If the Bayer filter over Blue pixels in the sensor allows out-of-band red wavelengths through ... determination if the pixel is blue, may be dependent on neighbouring Red pixels readings. Years of perfecting colour science on land may still lead to unexpected 'guesses' in the water - or when IR pollutes the sensor image.

REDs improved IR rejection and new RGB filtering should make colour determination less ambiguous; And with lower chanel noise, give greater certainty when those uncertainties occur.

Hopefully this will mean the Dragon colour science 'kills it (even more) when you first fire her up.

AJ
Click to expand...

Exactly what I'm hoping for
 
Mark Toia Well said!

Mark Toia Well said!

Bitch slap that dragon and tame it pushing the fre out until you burn the forest down!

Alain
 
Mark Toia said:
Hi Guys...

Both Jarred and Jim know that I don't pull many punches. So for them to send me their camera, must mean that they are extremely confident in the new sensors capabilities.
But lets be serious for a second, I'm not expecting miracles, like having noise free images at 10,000ASA or 20+ stops of DR, thats just plain silly.
But that said, my expectations are high and I'm going into this test with an open mind.

And to be clear... Jarred and Jim have not in anyway way asked me or pressured me or made me sign any crazy letters saying that I have to only say good things.
Jarred is not sending the camera with a team of techs, lawyers (and hit men) to make sure I shoot and say exactly the way they want
Jarred has pretty much sent it to me to test with no strings attached knowing that I will probably share my no BS testing with you all.
That said... I'm not going to be a dick !. I will share my views and the real world advantages that I require for my shooting style. I'm not going to crap on about pixels and colour sciences as that's best left for the pixel peeping nerds to fight over.

I'm going to push the camera to its extreme limits in 3 areas that I'd personally like to see a real difference in.

1. Hi ISO low light noise, just how useable is 2000iso, 4000iso and upwards, 6k will obviously yield the best results, especially when down-converted to HD... but what about 5k & 4k... Say if I want to shoot 150 to 200FPS slo-motion at night in low light, can I do that with less noise ? How much cleaner is this sensor compared to the last.

2. I'll be shooting a lot of hi contrast scenes, I really want to know exactly how much useable information can i retrieve out of a shot that maybe up to 10 - 12 stops between bright sunlight and dark shadows. Will I be able to see the difference straight up or do I have to window out what I need and pull up in the grade. Either which way, I'll be putting a lot of time into this part of the test.

3. We all know that all Digital cameras (yes Arri included) loose information in the very bright highlights. I'm just wondering how much information is actually hiding within these blown out highlights and can I retrieve any of it. Or better yet, If I expose only for those highlights, how much info can I dig out of the rest of the shot that maybe now in darkness. Shooting silver cars in the middle of the day in bright sunlight is not easy on any sensor. Lets see what we can get.
The monochrome was amazing in this test, I'm hoping the Dragon will equal it.

The Skin color argument over the years was absolute bullshit. I've never had the issue, never seen the issue. I've shot more shades and tones of skin than most people due to my global travels... and still yet to see the problem. I will be shooting some faces, but not for this reason.

I'll be very happy if the technology leap is as high as what it was between the first REDONE M 4k sensor and the current EPIC - MX 5k, that was quite a leap...

That all said, I applaud Jarred & Jim's confidence in loaning their baby to someone like me as I'm not a technical tester, or an academy award winner, I'm more the real world guy that travels the planet smashing out project after project. My needs are heavy and diverse and I'm spoilt for choice, I don't have budget problems so I can afford any camera I want and so far the RED EPIC has ticked more boxes for me than any other camera on the market today. The Dragon sensor upgrade should take it to the next level, and thats what I'm excited about seeing over the next week.

But at the end of the day I'm just like one of you, out there pushing the camera to the limits each day wanting to know that for $9500 dollars, will I then be armed with the best tool technology can offer me for the best price, heading well into the future.

I'll get back to you soon.

Cheers Guys.
Click to expand...

Can't wait to see the results Mark!
 
Jason Wingrove said:
bet i can get to him before you
j
Click to expand...

Jason, would love to see you knock out another short designed to explore the Dragon's capabilities on fxphd! Loved your previous short (and love fxphd in general!)
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
whats the minimum and maximum ISO on Dragon sensor?
Click to expand...

Minimum Jarred has said is 200 ISO and 2000ISO is supposedly cleaner than MX at 800ISO. We will see soon enough. As a note it has been said that you will have no penalty 16 stops of DR from 200ISO all the way up. Until we see some footage and tests we won't know for sure.
 
Matt Ryan said:
Minimum Jarred has said is 200 ISO and 2000ISO is supposedly cleaner than MX at 800ISO. We will see soon enough. As a note it has been said that you will have no penalty 16 stops of DR from 200ISO all the way up. Until we see some footage and tests we won't know for sure.
Click to expand...

I have a "guess" on the usable range without noise reduction involved, and it'a good thing. But I want to hold off on it now because a couple of things.

1. Don't want to spread crazy info.

2. Want to really test it out myself before stating anything.

I will say this regarding noise. With Epic with Mysterium-X at 5K with a proper finish down to 4K at ISO ranging from 250-6400. Without noise reduction involved I can get a nice feel and look out of ISO 1280-2000. ISO 3200+ tends to be where I wrangle in some noise reduction personally. All of this really depends on what look you want out of your footage and how much texture you're okay with.

If you recall back to my older Epic and Scarlet MX noise tests you can see with a bit of noise reduction involved ISO 6400 and even usable ISO 12800 is possible. Just depends on how you work it really.

That said..... Knowing that Dragon's got more meat (dynamic range) in it's REDCODE RAW, lower noise floor, and general idea the advantages it will have in terms of latitude compared to Mysterium-X; just think what we could potentially do.
 
I've always been one to struggle with noise on MX. I recently shot more stuff on my web series at ISO 800 under HMI lights and can suddenly push it around a lot without noise. I'm really surprised it looks this good. I'm hoping for similar performance at 800 under tungsten lighting with Dragon.
 
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