NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

[dennys bisogno]

It shouldn`t be a win for EPIC MX on the item, HDR, since Jarred has stated HDR is staying (unless it`s been stated that is staying on EPIC only).

With HDR enabled, Scarlet should achieve 22+ stops of DR...

Yes of course, but I did not stated that functionality since it is not shown in the spec as of now. the table does not translate into which one is better at the end .

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Really wish Scarlet Dragon could get frame rates that could compete with my FS700 which is less than half the price... Sad to think that I'll still have to choose the FS700 over Scarlet Dragon for jobs that need 120-240fps.

Then again, by my calculations, Scarlet Dragon's price to performance relationship with Epic Dragon is very consistent with the relationship MX Epics had to MX Scarlets.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

Really wish Scarlet Dragon could get frame rates that could compete with my FS700 which is less than half the price... Sad to think that I'll still have to choose the FS700 over Scarlet Dragon for jobs that need 120-240fps.

Then again, by my calculations, Scarlet Dragon's price to performance relationship with Epic Dragon is very consistent with the relationship MX Epics had to MX Scarlets.

Does your FS700 shoot RAW? No? 4K/5K? No? Hmmm... no comparison whatsoever.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Does your FS700 shoot RAW? No? 4K/5K? No? Hmmm... no comparison whatsoever.

He is talking about jobs he gets that need 120-240 fps, if he has a camera that does 4K, 8K, 16K, superRAW new technology-whatever doesn't matter, he still doesn't get those jobs if that is what they need.
You use the equipment that suits the job you do. I will probably buy the Blackmagic Production Camera based on it's price, but I really miss high fps, slomo, it's a creative tool that I work with a lot and that's why I haven't bought a Scarlet yet, because the pricepoint is still too high for me and it doesn't necessarily give me what I need at this time. The Blackmagic Production Camera might just give me what I need in comparison with it's pricepoint. High fps would have been nice on it, but if the end 4K, graded image on that camera is anywhere close to what I get out of a Scarlet, then I cannot justify buying myself a Scarlet.

It's just specs on a list, yes you get more DR, more resolution etc. with Scarlet, I understand why it's more expensive then the BMPC, but in the end, there's the end result. Watch the movie "Margin Call". It was shot on Red and the 5D mark II, can you tell which shots was Red and which ones was 5D without looking at some technical site for it? I garantuee that with someone who knows cinematography and post production, the BMPC will look indistinguishable from Scarlet when looking at the final result.

I think people look too much into the specs, at what the camera gives you on the SSD-card. Is that what is important? If you, with your knowledge, can get the same images out of a 4000 USD camera, why choose the more expensive equipment?
But again, if the end result requires high fps slomo shots, then that is impossible with a camera like the BMPC. For me, that is a creative tool I need, but I've been waiting for a loooong time to get a hold of a Red camera for a price that is reasonable for myself.
Scarlet is close, but not BMPC-close.

Then there's the Movi-rig, If I spend money on the BMPC and the Movi-rig I get a huge production value then if I spend all that money on a Red Scarlet package.

Yes, exciting times, but difficult ones. The risk of buying something expensive that drops in price heavily is very high and I'm not a fan of loosing money, I'm a fan of good throughtful investments.

 

[Manu BERNARD]

He is talking about jobs he gets that need 120-240 fps, if he has a camera that does 4K, 8K, 16K, superRAW new technology-whatever doesn't matter, he still doesn't get those jobs if that is what they need.
You use the equipment that suits the job you do. I will probably buy the Blackmagic Production Camera based on it's price, but I really miss high fps, slomo, it's a creative tool that I work with a lot and that's why I haven't bought a Scarlet yet, because the pricepoint is still too high for me and it doesn't necessarily give me what I need at this time. The Blackmagic Production Camera might just give me what I need in comparison with it's pricepoint. High fps would have been nice on it, but if the end 4K, graded image on that camera is anywhere close to what I get out of a Scarlet, then I cannot justify buying myself a Scarlet.

It's just specs on a list, yes you get more DR, more resolution etc. with Scarlet, I understand why it's more expensive then the BMPC, but in the end, there's the end result. Watch the movie "Margin Call". It was shot on Red and the 5D mark II, can you tell which shots was Red and which ones was 5D without looking at some technical site for it? I garantuee that with someone who knows cinematography and post production, the BMPC will look indistinguishable from Scarlet when looking at the final result.

I think people look too much into the specs, at what the camera gives you on the SSD-card. Is that what is important? If you, with your knowledge, can get the same images out of a 4000 USD camera, why choose the more expensive equipment?
But again, if the end result requires high fps slomo shots, then that is impossible with a camera like the BMPC. For me, that is a creative tool I need, but I've been waiting for a loooong time to get a hold of a Red camera for a price that is reasonable for myself.
Scarlet is close, but not BMPC-close.

Then there's the Movi-rig, If I spend money on the BMPC and the Movi-rig I get a huge production value then if I spend all that money on a Red Scarlet package.

Yes, exciting times, but difficult ones. The risk of buying something expensive that drops in price heavily is very high and I'm not a fan of loosing money, I'm a fan of good throughtful investments.

You are so right, that's why I choose to upgrade to epic x, the scarlet x will be obsolete with the BMC et the epic has the name which make people dream (plus slomo, full sensor used so less noise, and 5ws)

 

[Scott Crawley]

You are so right, that's why I choose to upgrade to epic x, the scarlet x will be obsolete with the BMC et the epic has the name which make people dream (plus slomo, full sensor used so less noise, and 5ws)

Scarlet was bound to become... Shall we say... Less unique... But obsoleted by the BMC? I'll believe that when I see it.

 

[Maik Müller]

I garantuee that with someone who knows cinematography and post production, the BMPC will look indistinguishable from Scarlet when looking at the final result.

But you forget that people with such skills could get the maximum out of a RED too and show where the differences are, if they want to.

I think people look too much into the specs, at what the camera gives you on the SSD-card. Is that what is important? If you, with your knowledge, can get the same images out of a 4000 USD camera, why choose the more expensive equipment?

Because you could get better images out of a RED? The potential is there, you just have to use it.

The risk of buying something expensive that drops in price heavily is very high and I'm not a fan of loosing money, I'm a fan of good throughtful investments.

Something is wrong with that investment-thinking and talk about loosing money because of hypothetical price-changes in the future. Yes, everything gets cheaper, but thats a good thing. It's only bad for you if you're buying a camera for the (in my opinion) wrong reasons.

 

[Maik Müller]

Scarlet was bound to become... Shall we say... Less unique... But obsoleted by the BMC? I'll believe that when I see it.

Maybe Scarlet-MX isn't that unique anymore, but a Dragon-Scarlet is a whole different story. Oversampling 4k and having this new sensor with higher DR and less noise, being able to shoot HFR and anamorphic modes all together make a big difference.

Scarlet-D could have shot "The Hobbit" and it even might look a bit better because of that sensor. It even obsoletes EPIC-X, as long as you're not in need for high FPS.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Scarlet was bound to become... Shall we say... Less unique... But obsoleted by the BMC? I'll believe that when I see it.

Scarlet is a much better camera, yes, but if you step back for a second, those who can afford a Scarlet might as well get an Epic. The camera market is shifting to 4K and there will come better and better options like the BMPC.
Look at what BM did, last NAB they announced the BMCC, this year the Pocket camera and the BMPC, look at where it is all heading. Look at how resolve got less and less expensive and that the Lite-version today does more then the full featured system a couple of years ago.

I think that spending too much on a mid-system is a bad investment. Either you spend a lot of money and get a full featured production package where you earn back everything by working your ass of. Or you wait until current tech gets cheaper and enables you to get something for 4000 USD. So is Scarlet obsolete? No, but in comparison with the BMPC and what you get for that price I think it is a bad investment to go with the Scarlet. The camera body is 8000 USD, but it doesn't even have a lens mount.
If Scarlet where under 10 000 USD for a working production package, then that would be a really good investment compared to everything else on the market. The BMPC would not hold up to the Scarlet in that case. At this time you will get a 4K Raw image with global shutter and 12 stops DR out of the BMPC for 4000 USD together with a free copy of DaVinci resolve and ultrascopes. The minimum deal to be able to use the Scarlet is around 14 000 USD. That is a very different price.

So, once again, If I have to spend 14 000 on a working Scarlet I might as well go bigger and get an Epic, if I want a 4K camera that holds up to most productions, the BMPC might be the best choice and putting the extra money into equipment and lights.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Does your FS700 shoot RAW? No? 4K/5K? No? Hmmm... no comparison whatsoever.

It is slated to get 4k 120fps RAW burst and 60fps continuous as well as 2k RAW 240fps continuous at the same time Scarlet Dragon is expected. All S35 without sensor crops and for the cost of a $2.2k or $5k recorder...

And I often need high frame rates but dont need cumbersome 4k or RAW workflows, so it would be nice of investing in Scarlet dragon didn't mean my scarlet still stayed home for most of those jobs.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Maybe Scarlet-MX isn't that unique anymore, but a Dragon-Scarlet is a whole different story. Oversampling 4k and having this new sensor with higher DR and less noise, being able to shoot HFR and anamorphic modes all together make a big difference.

Scarlet-D could have shot "The Hobbit" and it even might look a bit better because of that sensor. It even obsoletes EPIC-X, as long as you're not in need for high FPS.

No doubt.

 

[Daniel Grosseman]

Im in line for the upgrade to Scarlet Dragon. I will probably be one of the first guys to receive it in Brazil, if everything goes right in six months I will be able to buy an Epic MX out of Scarlet D's renting and by the end of the year I upgrade the Epic to Epic D. In 2014 I will have an Epic D as A camera and Scarlet D as B camera. Fingers crossed! :emote_hippie:

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Scarlet is a much better camera, yes, but if you step back for a second, those who can afford a Scarlet might as well get an Epic. The camera market is shifting to 4K and there will come better and better options like the BMPC.
Look at what BM did, last NAB they announced the BMCC, this year the Pocket camera and the BMPC, look at where it is all heading. Look at how resolve got less and less expensive and that the Lite-version today does more then the full featured system a couple of years ago.

I think that spending too much on a mid-system is a bad investment. Either you spend a lot of money and get a full featured production package where you earn back everything by working your ass of. Or you wait until current tech gets cheaper and enables you to get something for 4000 USD. So is Scarlet obsolete? No, but in comparison with the BMPC and what you get for that price I think it is a bad investment to go with the Scarlet. The camera body is 8000 USD, but it doesn't even have a lens mount.
If Scarlet where under 10 000 USD for a working production package, then that would be a really good investment compared to everything else on the market. The BMPC would not hold up to the Scarlet in that case. At this time you will get a 4K Raw image with global shutter and 12 stops DR out of the BMPC for 4000 USD together with a free copy of DaVinci resolve and ultrascopes. The minimum deal to be able to use the Scarlet is around 14 000 USD. That is a very different price.

So, once again, If I have to spend 14 000 on a working Scarlet I might as well go bigger and get an Epic, if I want a 4K camera that holds up to most productions, the BMPC might be the best choice and putting the extra money into equipment and lights.

Ok but a BMPC for 4000 isn't production ready just like a 8000 scarlet.
At least for the productions Im usually involved.

 

[Maik Müller]

I still havn't made my decision. My first thought was EPIC-D, but currently i think it would be better to get a Scarlet-D together with a Rocket-X and then save the rest for a Canon Motion-Mount. After that, work on getting a EPIC, hehe. I also have to admit that i have a somewhat emotional binding to my Scarlet, because i waited years for it, saved money for so long to make this dream come true. It's my first real professionel camera... Sending it back for a upgrade feels alright, while giving it up completely will probably hurt.

But 6k and the bigger sensor area are tempting, so are the higher framerates, i have to admit that.

What a great position to decide between those options.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Im in line for the upgrade to Scarlet Dragon. I will probably be one of the first guys to receive it in Brazil, if everything goes right in six months I will be able to buy an Epic MX out of Scarlet D's renting and by the end of the year I upgrade the Epic to Epic D. In 2014 I will have an Epic D as A camera and Scarlet D as B camera. Fingers crossed! :emote_hippie:

I would go straight to Epic D if you plan on getting an Epic later this year. It's a few thousand bucks cheaper to skip the upgrade.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I almost bought the fs700 over Scarlet, but considering the lack of features and rapid depreciation its too risky... My current Sony is worthless at BH trade in value, 0 in two years! Good luck with that business model!!! Its got two years of accident coverage but no value. I feel safer with the Scarlet, and am quite happy. Cant wait to upgrade. PS when you add up the off board recorder price coupled with the depreciation, I am not sure the Sony is that great a camera. I mean they rerelease the same thing every 6 months. Its kind of screwed up

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

I almost bought the fs700 over Scarlet, but considering the lack of features and rapid depreciation its too risky... My current Sony is worthless at BH trade in value, 0 in two years! Good luck with that business model!!! Its got two years of accident coverage but no value. I feel safer with the Scarlet, and am quite happy. Cant wait to upgrade. PS when you add up the off board recorder price coupled with the depreciation, I am not sure the Sony is that great a camera. I mean they rerelease the same thing every 6 months. Its kind of screwed up

It has always seemed to me that red depreciates more than other cameras, partly because selling is a bit more of a hassle with the cost complcations of getting evaluation and transfer of ownership and because red actually changes msrp which no other manufacturers do. This further reenforces the benefit of relying on red's upgrade paths rather than buying/selling used. Furthermore, scarlet's reliance on proprietary accessories means those accessories depreciate greatly with the camera as they cannot be used with other camera systems. I would not be surprised if my scarlet package depreciated twice as fast as my fs700, and that is part of the reason I got the dragon upgrade, since the beauty of red is they have upgrade options that to some extent lets you turn your camera into a new one while limitung the disadvantage of high depreciation in your initial investment.

I don't knoe which sony camera you had but I've had many cameras and found thay if you buy smart cameras hold their value reasonably well. I dont know of any popular cameras that depreciated to nothing in 2 years or even 5 years, so perhaps you are exaggerating, but bh trade in is hardly a good indication of market value...

 

[Jannard]

This is the most twisted logic I have ever read...

Jim

It has always seemed to me that red depreciates more than other cameras, partly because selling is a bit more of a hassle with the cost complcations of getting evaluation and transfer of ownership and because red actually changes msrp which no other manufacturers do. This further reenforces the benefit of relying on red's upgrade paths rather than buying/selling used. Furthermore, scarlet's reliance on proprietary accessories means those accessories depreciate greatly with the camera as they cannot be used with other camera systems. I would not be surprised if my scarlet package depreciated twice as fast as my fs700, and that is part of the reason I got the dragon upgrade, since the beauty of red is they have upgrade options that to some extent lets you turn your camera into a new one while limitung the disadvantage of high depreciation in your initial investment.

I don't knoe which sony camera you had but I've had many cameras and found thay if you buy smart cameras hold their value reasonably well. I dont know of any popular cameras that depreciated to nothing in 2 years or even 5 years, so perhaps you are exaggerating, but bh trade in is hardly a good indication of market value...

 

[Scott Crawley]

It has always seemed to me that red depreciates more than other cameras, partly because selling is a bit more of a hassle with the cost complcations of getting evaluation and transfer of ownership and because red actually changes msrp which no other manufacturers do...

Some may view Red's involvement in transfers as a hassle, others see it as a benefit. Regardless of how you view it, Red cameras have historically held their value longer than ANY other video camera that I'm aware of.

Just think for a moment about what an achievement it is to be both a leading innovator of technology AND be manufacturing products that maintain their value. Can you name another company that can make that claim? You have to be lightyears ahead of everyone else to pull that off... apparently.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I went epic-x route for now and then update to dragon later. Thank you RED