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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon, sight unseen? Really?

I ended up opting for the Scarlet Dragon path. But this is only because I have also ordered a new Epic Dragon. This way I have both cameras in the latest tech flavor. The Epic will be my A-cam and workhorse. It will also rent well - and when it does I will have the Scarlet to keep me company. Scarlet will also be a great B-cam to the Epic and it will also rent for the lower budget projects / clients...

So now I can offer my clients two dragons:

Dragon-E and Dragon-S

- one 6K @ 100 FPS, the other 5K @ 60 FPS
- both with the same amazing dynamic range
- both with the same image IQ (exceeding that of MX)
- both with higher native ISO and lower noise floor
- both with identical accessories
- both capable of delivering top quality UHD content
- both capable of delivering top quality cinema content

One happy RED customer here...

P
 
I opted scarlet dragon, I couldnt justify spending twice as much for 6K and more frame rates. 5K will be more than enough for a 4K finish for years to come, and all the benefits of the dragon that I want are included, higher frame rate, 3.5+ stops of DR, new color science, higher sensitivity.
 
Just got the email to upgrade this am which is pretty funny as the specs aren't actually out. For me better lowlight and 5K at 60fps is awesome. For me in the underwater world totally stoked as my housing will now fit Epic X, Scarlet X, Epic D and Scarlet D.... Lowlight is massive for me and to be honest 6K would be more of a headache.
 
PatrickFaith said:
This is a brainless decision for scarlet owners, at minimum the epic deal is great - you know exactly what your getting (a major motion picture camera) ... and you have the ability to eventually go to dragon.
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I take offense that you just called me brainless for my decision to opt for scarlet dragon. You have no idea my reasons behind it
Real classy
 
went in on scarlet d...was a hard hard choice but i got a feeling...
 
robert browning said:
I take offense that you just called me brainless for my decision to opt for scarlet dragon. You have no idea my reasons behind it
Real classy
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I think the term Patrick was looking for was "no brainer". Meaning that the upgrade path to both Epic with Mysterium-X and Scarlet Dragon are "easy decisions".
 
Phil Holland said:
I think the term Patrick was looking for was "no brainer". Meaning that the upgrade path to both Epic with Mysterium-X and Scarlet Dragon are "easy decisions".
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Ah, my apologies to patrick, then. Although, it kind of sounds like that because I did not choose that no brainer path, I must have no brain. I'm probably just reading it Wong. Sorry.
 
If you upgrade to Epic, do they give you a brand new camera or just swap out certain parts? Also what is the warranty given? Thanks
 
Getting back on topic, we went with Scarlet Dragon sight unseen. It is a gamble for sure, but at this point we're playing with house money and it's a safe bet. Epic Dragon is overkill for us

If Red knocks it out of the park with color science and low light performance, we're looking at a camera that kicks the crap out of a C500 with more dynamic range than Alexa.

Of course, Dragon is all on paper at this point and subject to real world testing.

Upside of Dragon vs MX
Gain over a stop of headroom for exposure/noise potential (Dragon 2000 vs. MX 800)
Gain ~3 stops of dynamic range; supposedly surpassing film (Dragon 16+ MX 13+)
Rolling shutter issue 'corrected' without use of global shutter
New OLPF better at reducing IR pollution w/ heavier ND usage
Dragon now RED flagship sensor

Downside of Dragon vs MX
FOV more telephoto on 4K (Dragon 5K = 1.6 vs. MX 5K = 1.3)
5K/6K = More data = necessitates larger/more SSDs, HDDs, and higher end CPU/GPU to process
MX color science mature and integrated into 3rd party apps; Dragon yet to be seen or implemented

On top of a 'better' sensor, Scarlet folks are getting a bump in frame rates. Not Epic X territory by a long shot, but still plenty for the majority of doco and narrative projects that come our way.

The sacrifice we make for that is not being able to trade up for Epic Dragon, but by the time we have money or want for that, we might as well buy one on the used market.

Dragon is a smarter investment for us over Epic X, and we remain incredibly jealous of those that can afford Epic Dragon.
 
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Some of us have been down this road when RED was four letter word = SCAM.

Some of us have been down this road when RED was four letter word = SCAM.

Brant Hadfield said:
My hunch, and this is just a hunch, is that Red is in a mad dash to get the color done, and it may be proving pretty tricky.
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Hi Brant, I strongly disagree with your hunch. :beer:

Please remember that Jarred has said that many things for this upgrade have been done for quite awhile in terms of firmware and features. Also, the last ASICS just came out the oven recently and the color science is in place but Graeme's tweaking is happening now. If they had showed footage now without being "95% there" all of us would have to endure the machinations of angry pixel peepers ripping on the image because of some possible perceived lack of something or the other... Graeme is refining and dialing in the color science now that he has the "final" ASICS to work with... My strong hunch is that we will be seeing footage trickle out as soon as early next week. Then... Imagine how the color science will continue to be improved over the life of our Dragons. Great times are ahead Brant...
 
Carlos Reyes said:
Some people trust RED and have their minds made up about which upgrade path to take. Whoever needs to wait and see footage and weigh their option can do that and make the decision when they're sure.
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Exactly. I trust RED enough to do it sight-unseen, I'm just a little tapped out now with my post-NAB-spending-spree. Hell, the original Red One looked amazing... but then the MX (which we now take for granted) was immensely better. I have no doubt that Dragon will be the Alexa-killer. The more framerates and all of that is going to be a bonus but, to me, the latitude over the Alexa is the gamechanger.

And, honestly, I'll always trust RED... my only time that trust was shaken to the core was when they said, at NAB the other year, that Scarlet and Epic both were going to be eligible for the Dragon... then we were told Scarlet wasn't getting it... but they still came through with this year's NAB, delivering on what they promised.

At the end of the day, you could got get an original One and make a ridiculously nice-looking film. For this Pop Evil music video I directed, we shot this on the original One four years ago and I'm still proud of the look;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcfmwfY2GOE

Everything now is just icing on the cake :)
 
Are there any civilians out there with the Dragon sensor installed?? Did RED ordered everybody to not show footage online?
 
Robino_J said:
Are there any civilians out there with the Dragon sensor installed?? Did RED ordered everybody to not show footage online?
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The first units to get the Dragon update (ie: those done on the show floor) will have their cameras shipped back to them next week according to Jarred. So if that goes nicely, we should start seeing footage next week... I hope.
 
OK can someone explain in layman terms the following without ascending into quantum maths the following ......FOV on Scarlet 1.3 ....FOV Scarlet 5k Dragon .....1.3.

So nothing has changed in that respect even though its meant to be bigger sensor correct?

But what will change is ISO tolerance , Frame rates, colour science, resolution and pixel density anything I missed ?
 
Mike Garrick said:
OK can someone explain in layman terms the following without ascending into quantum maths the following ......FOV on Scarlet 1.3 ....FOV Scarlet 5k Dragon .....1.3.

So nothing has changed in that respect even though its meant to be bigger sensor correct?

But what will change is ISO tolerance , Frame rates, colour science, resolution and pixel density anything I missed ?
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Scarlet was 4K, 1.6x

Scarlet Dragon 5k is 1.4
 
Less a leap of faith then the original deposit I put down on a camera that people were calling vaporware. That chip chart they released a while back showing "roughly" 19 stops of dynamic range - now reportedly 16.5 - is enough for me to take the leap of faith. I am sure there will be a "learning curve" before Dragon is bullet proof - it is one of the necessary evils of RED. But my camera has paid for itself and then some - so I am confident in taking the chance. Very excited actually. Finally a real argument against using an Alexa!
 
Brant Hadfield said:
I couldn't care less about more K's. I have been making money off my scarlet for a year, and nobody has ever once uttered anything close to, "Great, but I wish it were sharper". Quite the opposite actually.
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K's are not about the sharpness, there's much more to it.
 
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