GROUP BUY: CAME steadycam 2-15kg >1600USD

[Mark Schlicher]

I don't think anyone has equated ownership to ability in this thread. It's just new supply, new demand, like with RED.

The way I read the thread, lots of statements and implications that equate ownership with ability, as if it's just something you slap on for a quick, magically smooth shot. Here's the news: without a significant amount of practice (and probably some instruction), Steadicam shots will look substantially WORSE than handheld. Getting halfway decent at it (not even "mastery") takes daily practice and is measured in months or years, not days or weeks.

As for supply and demand, I see some really distorted notions about perceived value. People who wouldn't blink about spending $1000 for a top handle and viewfinder bracket (Element Technica), or $3000 for a prime lens with prized bokeh, somehow think that a precision camera stabilizing system should cost less than $1500. For crying out loud, a decent mattebox costs more than that. A proper fluid head and sticks costs double, triple, or more than that.

By the time you add a Marshall monitor, batteries, cables and stand to this system, you are north of $3000 by the way.

If you've already invested in Red, and you're really serious about your work, why wouldn't you budget for a proper stabilizer like you budget for everything else?

 

[Mark Schlicher]

I was under the impression that the reason people's backs got screwed up was because the cameras used to weigh 50+lbs minimum and the operator had to lean back to compensate for the weight (when mounted on the front). If the Epic/Scarlet are pared down to ~10-15lbs during flying, wouldn't you be far less likely to screw your back up from a front-mounted arm/vest?

Similarly, would it not be a simple mod to mount the arm to the back? As long as it's fixed, I can't imagine the ~10-15lbs being so mis-aligned that it throws off the entire distribution. Or could you not just buy a vest with rear-mounted arm and attach the cheap arm/sled to that?

Nope. A properly-operated Steadicam is counter-balanced to the operator's body and the weight is borne on the hips and shoulders.The arm attached right above the hips. The weight drills down through the legs and feet. The mid-back muscles aid in stabilizing the body movements but if the lower back is involved, the rig is improperly adjusted or the operator is fatigued. Heavier cameras mean faster overall fatigue but the principles are the same regardless of weight.

 

[Steven Blye]

I didn't see the Raptor listed as such on the Action Products web page. Does anyone know the state of production for the Raptor and its cost?

 

[David Kellermann]

The way I read the thread, lots of statements and implications that equate ownership with ability, as if it's just something you slap on for a quick, magically smooth shot. Here's the news: without a significant amount of practice (and probably some instruction), Steadicam shots will look substantially WORSE than handheld. Getting halfway decent at it (not even "mastery") takes daily practice and is measured in months or years, not days or weeks.

As for supply and demand, I see some really distorted notions about perceived value. People who wouldn't blink about spending $1000 for a top handle and viewfinder bracket (Element Technica), or $3000 for a prime lens with prized bokeh, somehow think that a precision camera stabilizing system should cost less than $1500. For crying out loud, a decent mattebox costs more than that. A proper fluid head and sticks costs double, triple, or more than that.

By the time you add a Marshall monitor, batteries, cables and stand to this system, you are north of $3000 by the way.

If you've already invested in Red, and you're really serious about your work, why wouldn't you budget for a proper stabilizer like you budget for everything else?

I don't agree with you about the "magically smooth shot". I use roughly three times a year a Glidecam 4000 of a friend shooting some no budget stuff. I "practice" maybe of few hours before shooting each time, and the results are OK-ish. Last week I was shooting a clip for friends. I had to shoot while walking through snow, a shot which would be impossible handheld, and I got decent results. And no, I wouldn't use those shots on a bigger production, but neither would I use the GH2 which was used on this shot. I bought the GH2 for the same reason as I want to buy a cheap stabilization system: if I don't get paid for something (i.e. personal projects, stuff for friends), I can't afford to rent an Scarlet or Epic.

 

[Marc Berger]

You can screw your back with almost no weight added to a rig. If you aren't using the correct posture, or if the weight is not properly distributed on your body, you will start having back pains after 10 minutes in the rig. This is why professional operators can have lasting careers shooting with heavy cameras: they know what they are doing, and the engineering that goes into professional rigs is top-notch. This is another thing to look for in these reverse-engineered knock-offs.

Very true. The pressure on the invertebral disk is 100% if you are upright. If you bend forward (bad posture without extra weight) this pressure rises already to approx. 160-200%. Lifting in a bended position around 20kg from the ground rises the pressure at around 450%.

 

[David Kellermann]

I didn't see the Raptor listed as such on the Action Products web page. Does anyone know the state of production for the Raptor and its cost?

They wrote me that the Raptor will be introduced in the next months.

 

[Mark Schlicher]

People who claim that this is about professional Steadicam operators feeling "threatened" are mistaken.

Professional Steadicam operators will never be threatened by incompetent operators any more than competent DP's are threatened by people who don't know how to light their way out of a paper bag.

Nobody, however, likes to see their craft cheapened by those promoting the idea that this hard-won skill is easy, and then filling the screen with badly-crafted shots.

And with respect to the poster above re: Neil Young's guitar playing, he is a master craftsman with a very distinct style that he has honed over 40 years. Not everyone's cup of tea stylistically, but there is not a single not ehe plays that is not intentional and precise.

For the record, I don't have a beef with anyone who is curious spending a few bucks to "see what it is like", that's anyone's right.

 

[Brett Harrison]

People who claim that this is about professional Steadicam operators feeling "threatened" are mistaken.

And with respect to the poster above re: Neil Young's guitar playing, he is a master craftsman with a very distinct style that he has honed over 40 years. Not everyone's cup of tea stylistically, but there is not a single note he plays that is not intentional and precise.

I can play Johnny B Good and have fun with it.

You have to separate the 'writing' (blocking choices) from the physical act of performance -- overlapping but not the same thing. In the musician analogy, professional steadicam operators are the equivalent of session musicians. But now in the digital era, people are forming their own bands of filmmakers, and most garage bands are only good at playing their own stuff and you wouldn't hire them for session work because they'd suck at other people's music if they're new to performance. There's a difference between Silverchair on their first album and an orchestra violinist that will play the score perfectly the first time.

I know from seeing novices use a stabiliser that it's a great improvement over walking -- let alone running -- shoulder mount:

Here's my first real test with the Chinese Steadycam. Mind you, I am not an experienced operator, I was also walking on soft sand and in high winds. This was also my first go at it. I think the rig is solid. I'm sure with practice I can get better results, but for my first go at it I can't complain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdsg11gxcLk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

The way I read the thread, lots of statements and implications that equate ownership with ability, as if it's just something you slap on for a quick, magically smooth shot. Here's the news: without a significant amount of practice (and probably some instruction), Steadicam shots will look substantially WORSE than handheld. Getting halfway decent at it (not even "mastery") takes daily practice and is measured in months or years, not days or weeks.

I have to disagree... while i hated the rig i had (indian steadicam knock off) and I was/am by no means a steadicam operator, nor would I ever call myself one..
the rig I had produced MUCH smoother shots than handheld...and I only had it for about a month or so..

it still jacked up my back.. probably because it was a bad piece of equipment, and I was trying to fly a 30lb red one set up, with no training at all..

but over all i guess im just disagreeing with the fact the a standard handheld shot would be smoother than slapping on one of these cheaper rigs..

 

[Mark Schlicher]

I don't personally begrudge anyone's decision to join a garage band or form a group of filmmakers to make personal projects. Hobbies and artistic avocations are good and valuable things. Depends on your goals. That is different than calling yourself a DP or steadicam operator, and I meet far too many people who have those titles on their business card or website but are professionally unqualified to the titles.

Self-contained groups of indie filmmakers is nothing new...it's been around since at least the French New Wave with the advent of lower-priced 16mm cameras.

The session musician analogy is pretty good. No analogy is perfect but I don't disagree. The problem comes if the garage band member tries to misrepresent their technical chops to get a session job, or if this garage musician themselves mistakes their skill level for greater than it is....in either case they will never make the transition to professional work.

I understand the overlap and the distinctions between concept and execution. At some point, technical mastery is simply part of being an artist, whether it be limited to your own "style", or a journeyman's ability to "play" in a variety of styles and shooting situations. No one calling themselves an artist or a craftsman should settle for less than a pursuit of both conceptual inspiration and the technical ability to carry it off. Otherwise it's more of a sketch of an idea than a fully-realized work.

 

[Mark Schlicher]

but over all i guess im just disagreeing with the fact the a standard handheld shot would be smoother than slapping on one of these cheaper rigs..

Smoother...possibly. But an experienced handhed operator can generally compose more dynamic, controlled, intentionally-designed shots than an inexperienced operator with a maladjusted rig flopping all over the place, or over-controlled with a death-grip on the gimbal handle.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Smoother...possibly. But an experienced handheld operator can generally compose more dynamic, controlled, intentionally-designed shots than an inexperienced operator with a maladjusted rig flopping all over the place, or over-controlled with a death-grip on the gimbal handle.

That's a great distinction.

Actually I think the Easyrig is a happy medium for a lot of purposes. I've seen some shots look terrific with an easyrig and a dolly or even a wheelchair-like setup, or just walking along carefully, and comparable in price to these budget steadicams.

 

[david_winters]

If anyone in Orange County CA wants to check out the Came and try it on, let me know. We can arrange an informal meeting at my office in Costa Mesa. Or, elsewhere.

I don't read anyone here claiming to become a carrier focused steadicam operator with a $1500 rig. I think we are all interested in a very low cost tool for the occasional shot. I had my Came a total of 7 days before I used it on a low budget 1-day commercial with acceptable results. All involved knew my limitations and wanted to take a chance. Producer, director, agency, end client, all thrilled with results on what was budgeted as a handheld day.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

david.. pm'd you...
im 20 mins south. Id love to check it out

 

[Lliam Worthington]

I'm interested in the group buy. Australia. Thanks.

 

[Adam Eden]

I dont mean to put a dampener on peoples dreams here of a cheap steadicam knock off, but let me explain a couple of financial things here and as a professional DP and Steadicam operator i personally think it is great that everyone here is going to buy one as it will make me look like a f@$King champion compared to you guys!

1. if you buy any steadicam you need to buy Jerry Holways book "The steadicam operators handbook" without this you will have no idea about static or dynamic balancing and probably will never balance any rig even half correctly.

2. A steadicam is totally useless unless you have a decent monitor. All the cheap LCDS etc cannot be viewed under direct sunlight. The new transvideo one i am looking at is over $10K alone.

3. A steadicam is equally useless unless you have some sort of remote focusing controls. There is no way in hell auto focus works on anything larger than a 1/3 inch sensor, So unless you are going to shoot at F22 on a 15mm lens, you will be up for a lot of money buying one. My Arri one cost me about $28k, Even a cheap ass Hocus Focus unit is about $3-4k

4. Dont expect to be able to use this professionally unless you do hours of practise shooting family videos, kids footy matches or short films (kids footy matches are great as they teach you both forward and Don Juan(Shooting in reverse so your back is facing the action) and the other main excercise that i still practice is called walking the line, where you draw a line on the ground for 10-20 metres and walk backward and forwards keeping the camera in the direction of the line and also keeping your horizons straight and level. Also practicing "Switches" is a must and you can buy the book to find out what that means.

These are the basic things you need and i am trying not to turn anyone off buying one of these but you really need to consider all the other bits you have to buy to make this work.

BTW I spent alot of money on a week long official Gold Steadicam course with Garrett Brown (The Inventor) and Jerry Holway (Pioneer of steadicam operators) about 2 years ago. I had about 2 years worth of experience before i attended the course. I say this as i was one of the lucky ones that when i first put on a steadicam and i bought private training from an expert steadicam instruction (3 days solid) i picked it up easily. Alot of people really find it difficult to fly a steadicam and always fight with it to do what they want.

A good operator can use a rig for 8-10 hours a day, without any back pain, without being totally f$%ked and having to day 3 days off afterwards, and really the heavier the rig the easier it is to use. When your technique is right and all the ducks line up in a row.... The steadicam floats and adds drama and impact to the final production.

Im still learning everyday and trying out new ideas because as a steadicam guy the director looks to YOU for guidance and a good steadicam op basically choreographs the movement.

So if you are buying one to make your shots look more stable.. Buy an Easyrig as I still shoot with them all of the time and they add a great element to shooting hand held as you can hand hold an 85mm - 130mm lens with an easy rig.

 

[Brett Harrison]

I dont mean to put a dampener on peoples dreams here of a cheap steadicam knock off, but let me explain a couple of financial things here and as a professional DP and Steadicam operator i personally think it is great that everyone here is going to buy one as it will make me look like a f@$King champion compared to you guys!

1. if you buy any steadicam you need to buy Jerry Holways book "The steadicam operators handbook" without this you will have no idea about static or dynamic balancing and probably will never balance any rig even half correctly.

2. A steadicam is totally useless unless you have a decent monitor. All the cheap LCDS etc cannot be viewed under direct sunlight. The new transvideo one i am looking at is over $10K alone.

3. A steadicam is equally useless unless you have some sort of remote focusing controls. There is no way in hell auto focus works on anything larger than a 1/3 inch sensor, So unless you are going to shoot at F22 on a 15mm lens, you will be up for a lot of money buying one. My Arri one cost me about $28k, Even a cheap ass Hocus Focus unit is about $3-4k

4. Dont expect to be able to use this professionally unless you do hours of practise shooting family videos, kids footy matches or short films (kids footy matches are great as they teach you both forward and Don Juan(Shooting in reverse so your back is facing the action) and the other main excercise that i still practice is called walking the line, where you draw a line on the ground for 10-20 metres and walk backward and forwards keeping the camera in the direction of the line and also keeping your horizons straight and level. Also practicing "Switches" is a must and you can buy the book to find out what that means.

These are the basic things you need and i am trying not to turn anyone off buying one of these but you really need to consider all the other bits you have to buy to make this work.

BTW I spent alot of money on a week long official Gold Steadicam course with Garrett Brown (The Inventor) and Jerry Holway (Pioneer of steadicam operators) about 2 years ago. I had about 2 years worth of experience before i attended the course. I say this as i was one of the lucky ones that when i first put on a steadicam and i bought private training from an expert steadicam instruction (3 days solid) i picked it up easily. Alot of people really find it difficult to fly a steadicam and always fight with it to do what they want.

A good operator can use a rig for 8-10 hours a day, without any back pain, without being totally f$%ked and having to day 3 days off afterwards, and really the heavier the rig the easier it is to use. When your technique is right and all the ducks line up in a row.... The steadicam floats and adds drama and impact to the final production.

Im still learning everyday and trying out new ideas because as a steadicam guy the director looks to YOU for guidance and a good steadicam op basically choreographs the movement.

So if you are buying one to make your shots look more stable.. Buy an Easyrig as I still shoot with them all of the time and they add a great element to shooting hand held as you can hand hold an 85mm - 130mm lens with an easy rig.

Thanks Adam, great post!

Sounds like the expectations should scale evenly with the investment of money and time.

Do you have any tips for using the Easyrig to achieve steadicam-like shots?

Would you say 'bad steadicam' has its place? Is it better to use an Easyrig for that kind of aesthetic?

 

[Adam Eden]

Bad steadicam looks terrible as if your horizon are rocky, it makes people feel sick. Like being sea sick and has no place. And bad steadicam is bad for your body and if you dont know what you are doing you could easily damage your body.

I am confused at what people think the steadicam look is.. When operating and i am not moving, the my pictures should look like i am on a tripod. When i am moving through a scene... Then i should look like the camera is floating... or more commonly known as flying.

I can achieve similar looks with an easy rig if i am moving in a constant manner and i know where i am going to end up.. ie rehearsing the moves. You always need to move smoothly and when you are stopped, then stop and dont move, and when stopping dont stop to a sudden halt and have your body in a position that is uncomfortable. IE a position that you cannot hold for 5 minutes of more. When you stop, you de accelerate until you are stopped.

But steadicam and Easyrig are different beasts. If i want the "floaty" motion look when shooting an interview then the steadicam is the wrong tool. The Easyrig is perfect for the STATIONARY floaty look with a long lens to get that really nice look.

As inspiration look at http://steadishots.org this is one of my favourite websites and i get a lot of inspiration by looking at "the Masters" work.

I dont mind being a bounce board for people considering buying any rig as i have been doing this for a while now, but make it on this forum instead of a private post so everyone can share the information.

 

[Brett Harrison]

I am confused at what people think the steadicam look is.. When operating and i am not moving, the my pictures should look like i am on a tripod. When i am moving through a scene... Then i should look like the camera is floating... or more commonly known as flying.



As inspiration look at http://steadishots.org this is one of my favourite websites and i get a lot of inspiration by looking at "the Masters" work.

This stuff is what I have in mind when I think of less-than-clinical steadicam moves:

http://www.steadishots.org/shots_detail.cfm?shotID=277
http://www.steadishots.org/shots_detail.cfm?shotID=278

I don't think they are bad in the sense of level of skill (it's intentional), just in terms of how much 'additional' pitch, yaw and roll there is.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

3. A steadicam is equally useless unless you have some sort of remote focusing controls. There is no way in hell auto focus works on anything larger than a 1/3 inch sensor, So unless you are going to shoot at F22 on a 15mm lens, you will be up for a lot of money buying one. My Arri one cost me about $28k, Even a cheap ass Hocus Focus unit is about $3-4k
.

http://www.wondlan.com/product/wireless-mnemonic-follow-focus/

600 bucks