Need recorder advice...

[Christopher Barrett]

I'm looking to add some sound to our kit. I typically prefer to work with an equipped sound guy (crew) but that's not always an option. I currently have a Tascam DR-100 and it's got some issues to be sure. I was considering a Sound Devices 702T or 744T. As I understand it, you would still need a field mixer though, yeah? Is there a good 4 channel recorder with integrated mixer and Timecode? Not too concerned with price, just want to do this right.

Thanks!
CB

 

[Christopher Mills]

The sound devices 664 and zaxcom nomad are integrated mixer/recorders I and my colleagues use.
They both have TC clocks in them as well... which can make them a tc master source for your set
I suggest you see them in person to see which one you like better. they will be current tech for a few years, and you can do eng and drama on them

702t is only 2 tracks, but has a great stable TC clock

the 744t and 788t do not have built in mixing... mostly (it's clunky to mix on them directly)
.
you can add a CL8 to the 788 for a low profile 12 track device..


I also use a Zaxcom Fusion 10 which has both features, and a touch screen.
It is heavier, and uses NP-1 batteries internally.. but can easily become the core of a sound cart for a larger production.

 

[PatrickFaith]

The sound devices 664 and zaxcom nomad are integrated mixer/recorders I and my colleagues use.
They both have TC clocks in them as well... which can make them a tc master source for your set
I suggest you see them in person to see which one you like better. they will be current tech for a few years, and you can do eng and drama on them

702t is only 2 tracks, but has a great stable TC clock

the 744t and 788t do not have built in mixing... mostly (it's clunky to mix on them directly)
.
you can add a CL8 to the 788 for a low profile 12 track device..


I also use a Zaxcom Fusion 10 which has both features, and a touch screen.
It is heavier, and uses NP-1 batteries internally.. but can easily become the core of a sound cart for a larger production.

Sound Advice ! I do currently use a 744t with a pre-d mixer, but I'm finding that set to be limiting. The 664 is what I would have ordered if it was available, only thing it doesn't have over a 788t that I use is dual media write(788t/744t can save to two media during recording in case one is corrupted). I have been debating between upgrading to the 788t/cl8, but that is a big complex unit - the 664 is a lot cleaner setup and almost $3k less.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

If it's in your budget get a Zaxcom Nomad. It's a great recorder/mixer.

 

[Dave Blackham]

788t/cl8 Id think would be good for you. If you want an external mixer in to one of the smaller SD units then our preference is SQN 5S which is bomb proof. Combined they are heavy to lug around for docs. Its really dependent on your needs on location and how mobile you need to be.

 

[Christopher Mills]

Zax is available with dual media..
if you want backup, then plug your tascam into an output from it.. lighter and cheaper than the 788/cl8 combo..

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think the 788 with the CL8 mixing panel is very hard to beat for size and weight. Nomad is new and has its fans, but you can only control six pots at any one time -- which may or may not be important to you. Nomad certainly has the advantage for battery life and weight. I'd call this a "Mercedes vs. BMW" comparison, both very good machines with prices to match, widely used by top professionals.

On a tight budget, my advice would be to hunt down a used 442 SD mixer and a 744t recorder. Those will get you by for several years for a fraction of the price of the more-expensive machines.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I think the 788 with the CL8 mixing panel is very hard to beat for size and weight. Nomad is new and has its fans, but you can only control six pots at any one time -- which may or may not be important to you. Nomad certainly has the advantage for battery life and weight. I'd call this a "Mercedes vs. BMW" comparison, both very good machines with prices to match, widely used by top professionals.

On a tight budget, my advice would be to hunt down a used 442 SD mixer and a 744t recorder. Those will get you by for several years for a fraction of the price of the more-expensive machines.

Here's a nice 442 for sale.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Chris,

Question for you: How many tracks do you want to be able to record?

I've been using the Sound Devices 442 and 744T combination for many years - can attest to the durability and functionality. But only 4 tracks, two pieces of hardware + all the cables...
Think you are on the right track considering an integrated mixer / recorder.

I've seen the 664 but have not yet used it on a job. Looks very nice - I'll probably pick one up later in 2013 (after some more glass and a laser)
The 664 will capture at 16 or 24 bit and records to both CF and SD. If you ever need more tracks, the accessory CL6 will take you up to 16 channels. One potentially important consideration: Sound Devices uses the same manufacturer for the time code portion of their gear (Ambient) as the Lockit boxes - so you can remain assured of consistent TC sync on a long shoot.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I've had no problem mixing Denecke time-code boxes (and slates) with the Ambient TC generators built in to Sound Devices products. The official standard specifies X parts per million, so we're talking about roughly 1 frame every 6-7 hours. It's going to be pretty darn close, unless you deal with multiple cameras (and/or 3D camera rigs), in which case you need phase accuracy with genlock.

I've played with the 662, and it's not an ideal machine for me. I think for most shoots, the 788 makes more sense and has more visible metering and more options (like the CL8 rotary knobs or the CL9 vertical fader panel). What will be interesting is to see what Sound Devices does at NAB in April 2013...

 

[Christopher Barrett]

Thanks for all the great input! It'd be nice to have a unit that could handle 4 tracks. I'm leaning towards the SD 664. It's a chunk of change but should hopefully last me forever.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Marc is absolutely correct about Ambient and Denecke compatibility. I use the Denecke slate and have never had an issue (that could not be attributed to operator error).
Multi-cam is where I am mostly concerned with accuracy - there have been many times that syncing time code with the right gear has been a life saver in post. It is easy to find yourself in a situation where a critical interview has 3-4 cameras plus the audio recorder.
Not saying that mixing gear in that case will lead to trouble - I would take Marc's experience and knowledge as excellent guidance.

Same goes for his words on the 664 vs 788T. (Added note for your research: the 788T also has some remote options)
As I said, have not had a chance to use the 664 in the field yet - only close look so far was at the AES show.
Agreed - if you can wait for what is shown off at NAB, might very well be worth the wait.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Thanks for all the great input! It'd be nice to have a unit that could handle 4 tracks. I'm leaning towards the SD 664. It's a chunk of change but should hopefully last me forever.

This is cheaper than a SD 664 and records/mixes up to 10 channels now: http://www.pro-sound.com/Merchant2/...PSS&Product_Code=SZAXNOMADLITE&Category_Code=

I got this when it was simply a 4 channel recorder. Now they came out with this 10 channel version and they allow us to upgrade for $95 which really impressed me. You can also upgrade to any better version of the Nomad at any time either by either getting an unlock code or sending in the unit for a hardware upgrade. I don't know of any other company offering this.

They also have a new product coming out very soon called the Zaxcom Maxx. It is a cheaper model (starting ~$2100) with fewer channels (up to 6) that has built in wireless: http://www.zaxcom.com/maxx

This is top quality gear. Zaxcom won a technical achievement award from the Cinema Audio Society (CAS) recently.

 

[Stewart Read]

I have a 702 and love it.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I got this when it was simply a 4 channel recorder. Now they came out with this 10 channel version and they allow us to upgrade for $95 which really impressed me. You can also upgrade to any better version of the Nomad at any time either by either getting an unlock code or sending in the unit for a hardware upgrade. I don't know of any other company offering this.

That is not exactly true. I seem to recall going from the lowest-cost Nomad model to the most deluxe model, you have to actually send the unit in for a physical hardware modification.

But I agree, Zaxcom makes world-class products with exceptionally high quality, and they also have very good support. Glenn Sanders is a stand-up guy.

As far as I'm concerned, comparing Sound Devices vs. Zaxcom is kind of a "Mercedes vs. BMW" comparison -- you honestly can't go wrong with either, and a lot boils down to individual taste and personal preference.

 

[Rob_Austin]

Is there ever a case where a generator/clock/sync box is not needed for one epic/one recorder? For example, can one get accurate timecode generation/sync to the epic with only a 702t or 744t?

 

[Doug Beatty]

You can jam sync camera directly from the mixer with the right cable, however, I can't guarantee there wouldn't be a drift by the end of a 12 hour day if you didn't re-jam, or powering down and back up again.

It is best to have a lockit box continually feeding the camera time code. Jam the box once at the beginning of the day, verify sync, and then you don't have to worry about it again.

FWIW, I love my Nomad setup- Zaxnet allows me to run a scratch track and auto-jamming time code to Epic with a single cable and a receiver the size of an iPod.

A second receiver goes to village/producer/client and a 3rd to the director. Boom- IFB and time code solved with Zaxnet.

Light weight, no fuss and nothing but great feedback from camera ops so far. If you are in LA, I can hook you up with a package or work you shoot and show you how easy it is.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

That is not exactly true. I seem to recall going from the lowest-cost Nomad model to the most deluxe model, you have to actually send the unit in for a physical hardware modification.

But I agree, Zaxcom makes world-class products with exceptionally high quality, and they also have very good support. Glenn Sanders is a stand-up guy.

As far as I'm concerned, comparing Sound Devices vs. Zaxcom is kind of a "Mercedes vs. BMW" comparison -- you honestly can't go wrong with either, and a lot boils down to individual taste and personal preference.

I said either with a code or hardware modification. I didn't mean they do the same thing. Depends on the model you have. The $95 4 channel to 10 channel upgrade is a firmware upgrade.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

You can jam sync camera directly from the mixer with the right cable, however, I can't guarantee there wouldn't be a drift by the end of a 12 hour day if you didn't re-jam, or powering down and back up again.

It is best to have a lockit box continually feeding the camera time code. Jam the box once at the beginning of the day, verify sync, and then you don't have to worry about it again.

FWIW, I love my Nomad setup- Zaxnet allows me to run a scratch track and auto-jamming time code to Epic with a single cable and a receiver the size of an iPod.

A second receiver goes to village/producer/client and a 3rd to the director. Boom- IFB and time code solved with Zaxnet.

Light weight, no fuss and nothing but great feedback from camera ops so far. If you are in LA, I can hook you up with a package or work you shoot and show you how easy it is.

I can guarantee there will be a drift after 12 hours We jamsync every couple hours (syncing the camera to the Nomad's timecode). We don't have Zaxnet on our Nomad. Sounds like you have a great setup.

 

[Doug Beatty]

I said either with a code or hardware modification. I didn't mean they do the same thing. Depends on the model you have. The $95 4 channel to 10 channel upgrade is a firmware upgrade.

That firmware update costs $300 now, Zaxcom had a grace period prior to January 1st when they launched Lite to allow the early adopters to upgrade at lower pricing. I was able to go from a Nomad 6 to a 10 for $150. Not sure I'll ever need 10 ISOs, but I couldn't pass up that deal.

If I were in the market for a basic mixer/recorder, I would put Zaxcom Maxx right up there with the 664. 4 analog inputs w/ phantom power and TC I/O.

The base model allows you to record your stereo output bus, but you can add an option to record 4 additional ISO tracks and at half the cost of a 664.

I can guarantee there will be a drift after 12 hours We jamsync every couple hours (syncing the camera to the Nomad's timecode). We don't have Zaxnet on our Nomad. Sounds like you have a great setup.

Yeah, I love the setup. Each Zaxnet receiver continually jams wirelessly when the mixer is in range, but even when not in range they have the same time code clock as Nomad so there is no drift. Set it and forget it.