48fps PAL problem

[Bart de Graaf]

Hello guys,

Currently our production company is thinking about making a new step.
Our main business is making music video's and for several reasons (you all know em probably) we are done with the dslr's.

We rented both the epic and the scarlet multiple times to experience the RED workflow. Although we are a big fan of the epic, we think its overkill for our type of work at this time.
What we really do love is the 50/100/150 (etc) fps modes which are easily converted to 25 fps. That is not as easy on the scarlet with the 48fps, it was very un-logical in the workflow to get to 25p which is really necessary for our main platform (Dutch TV, PAL).

Now my question; is there a proper way to get to 25fps from the 48 fps (without shortening the length of the audio track and pitching it down, or to let the editing software make double frames in the end edit).

I really hope you guys can help me on this one, ow yes.... going to 2 k is not really an option, I don't like the look of the material/ i get problems with my 'angles' on my cp2's.

Greetings from the Netherlands,

Bart de Graaf

 

[Björn Benckert]

Hello guys,

Currently our production company is thinking about making a new step.
Our main business is making music video's and for several reasons (you all know em probably) we are done with the dslr's.

We rented both the epic and the scarlet multiple times to experience the RED workflow. Although we are a big fan of the epic, we think its overkill for our type of work at this time.
What we really do love is the 50/100/150 (etc) fps modes which are easily converted to 25 fps. That is not as easy on the scarlet with the 48fps, it was very un-logical in the workflow to get to 25p which is really necessary for our main platform (Dutch TV, PAL).

Now my question; is there a proper way to get to 25fps from the 48 fps (without shortening the length of the audio track and pitching it down, or to let the editing software make double frames in the end edit).

I really hope you guys can help me on this one, ow yes.... going to 2 k is not really an option, I don't like the look of the material/ i get problems with my 'angles' on my cp2's.

Greetings from the Netherlands,

Bart de Graaf

To shoot 48fps / max out the scarlet all you have to do is to set yourt project frame rate to 25, then you need to speed up your sync sound track to match. in other words about 190% if I done the math correctly. Then if your artist sync to that the result footage will sync towards the 25fps final edit mix... makes sense?

 

[JanneJansson]

If you have your material converted to quicktimes, just use cinama tools and re-set framerate to match sync.

 

[Bart de Graaf]

To shoot 48fps / max out the scarlet all you have to do is to set yourt project frame rate to 25, then you need to speed up your sync sound track to match. in other words about 190% if I done the math correctly. Then if your artist sync to that the result footage will sync towards the 25fps final edit mix... makes sense?

Is it then correct to assume that the final output is in the 'slow-motion, but realtime singer effect'? That would make sense. But its not what I am after. I'll try to explain it again, but hopefully better.
Last time we shot some 48 fps shots that we wanted to use in a 25p sequence. What Premiere Pro did was copy every 24th frame and made that into the 25th. The problem that emerged was that the images didn't have smooth motion but were flickering every 24th/ 25th frame.
The same problem occurred in fcp7.

Then I found a solution by making the sequence to 24p. Export as a 24p clip and then move it in compressor to convert it 25 p. That worked, but now the audio was out of sync. So i had to speed up the audio, by 104%. With made the beat/speed different. The producers of the track were not happy with that.

So next solution...

What we did was to go in the 25p project, cut away every 'made up frame' that the software added, and fill the gap by the following frame. This was very annoying and not very time effective, but it worked.

What I was thinking, if the camera is put into 25p modus, and you shoot in 48 fps. Will the software then make the same double frames? Or is there an other way to work around this annoying issue.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Is it then correct to assume that the final output is in the 'slow-motion, but realtime singer effect'? That would make sense. But its not what I am after. I'll try to explain it again, but hopefully better.
Last time we shot some 48 fps shots that we wanted to use in a 25p sequence. What Premiere Pro did was copy every 24th frame and made that into the 25th. The problem that emerged was that the images didn't have smooth motion but were flickering every 24th/ 25th frame.
The same problem occurred in fcp7.

Then I found a solution by making the sequence to 24p. Export as a 24p clip and then move it in compressor to convert it 25 p. That worked, but now the audio was out of sync. So i had to speed up the audio, by 104%. With made the beat/speed different. The producers of the track were not happy with that.

So next solution...

What we did was to go in the 25p project, cut away every 'made up frame' that the software added, and fill the gap by the following frame. This was very annoying and not very time effective, but it worked.

What I was thinking, if the camera is put into 25p modus, and you shoot in 48 fps. Will the software then make the same double frames? Or is there an other way to work around this annoying issue.

Im not sure I understand what you are after. But if you "deal by 2" you get 24p. (in other words speed up your 48p source by 200%) That is one frame short from 25p. If you then slow your new 24p source down by a 1/25 or 4% and use twixor or such (motion estimate time warp) you would get a quite good realtime 25p source from our 48p shoots. But I would probably Try to use the 48p source speeded x2 and if your clips are not to long it only drift a frame per second so for short clips you could use it as is.


But best is to be shooting correctly. So if you shoot 48p but you want to be able to sync it up in a 25p timeline without any framy dubbles our such then it's best to slow down your recording audio by 1/25 Thats easily done in final cut or such. The easiest way to get the math right then is to take 24seconds of sound and time remap it so it becomes 25seconds. whatever procentage you get for your timewarp by doing so is then applied to your whole audio track. Then you just use that sound track when shooting. Same goes for any other off speed sync shootings.

It really blows that the scarlet can not do 50p.

 

[Bart de Graaf]

Thanks Björn,

Basically, thats what I found out as well. I thought more people would have ran into this problem before, and may have found a good solution. It means you speed up the audio to 104%. Export the 24fps sequence, convert it to 25p and then match them back together. But most producers do not accept that you change their audio speeds and mess with the pitch.

It totally blows indeed. It makes the step to a scarlet less appealing for us. We just HAVE to deliver PAL formats and we are bound to the audio we receive.

 

[sander kamp]

Hi Bart,

I tried to understand what your problem is but I am not sure I follow. What is your final deliverable? A 50p file? Or an interlaced file, why do you need 50 frames per second for television?

There is no good reason why your footage would not play back smooth at 24/25 fps, movies have been made like that for decades. If you have a problem with strobing then you are doing something wrong with shutter angles or camera moves.

If you DO have to output 50 fps then don't speed up your audio in post but slow down the music track for the shoot and have your band lip sync to that. Then before editing do a conform of your footage from 48 to 50 fps, use the original track and you're all good, no need to add frames or anything else.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Workarounds 25 issues are soooo early 2000'ish

If at all possible, i really wish red would look into that for the scarlet users.

Remember how the hvx200 (which was a varispeed cam) couldn't deal with being both pal and ntsc?

Odd stuff...

 

[jimhare]

Hi Bart,

I think Björn was right but you took it a step too far by assuming that you would have to speed everything up for the master.

I think the best approach would be:

1. Output the clip at 24fps (assume you had the track performed at 200% for a perfect double speed?)
2. Use Cinema Tools to reconform it to 25fps. It will now play slightly too fast.
3. Load the unaltered audio into a 25fps sequence. This is not sped up or pitch shifted, it's the pure track.
4. Cut short to medium clips from the reconformed footage. Unless they are longer than a few seconds, there shouldn't be a noticable drift.

This way you are not speeding up the track, changing the duration or pitch. No one except you will ever know the footage was technically going too fast as it will be masked by the cuts.

 

[Sam Taylor]

Dear Red team,
Please give us Europeans 25p. Thank you very much!

 

[sander kamp]

1. Output the clip at 24fps (assume you had the track performed at 200% for a perfect double speed?)

What's the importance of being exactly 200%? Wouldn't be easier to speed up the track with 192% and be in sync right away?

Sorry for not quite getting the 48 fps problem, I would think it is just the limit of over cranking and that's what you deal with. I never had a problem with the Red One 120 fps limit while living in a PAL country. But maybe I am missing something here?

 

[Ruff]

I guess Red is an American company. And fair enough that they are focused on the American market.

I have been asking for 50fps on the Scarlet since day one.

Very happy with the Epic. But Scarlet would have been long gone for me if they had not slashed the sale price.


Lot's of requests all over Reduser for this. No solutions. Scarlet is great at 25fps. But thats it. So, go into it knowing that. Or look to other options.

 

[Björn Benckert]

What's the importance of being exactly 200%? Wouldn't be easier to speed up the track with 192% and be in sync right away?

Sorry for not quite getting the 48 fps problem, I would think it is just the limit of over cranking and that's what you deal with. I never had a problem with the Red One 120 fps limit while living in a PAL country. But maybe I am missing something here?

Yuo need to understand that when you speed 192% you will get frame blending. If you speed 200% you just take out every second frame. Red kind of forgot the pal land when setitng the limit to 48p wich is not even devided by 25p wich is standard in europe. So I think very many scarlet user would be happy to loose a few row of pixels on each frame to get full 50p. As then they can shoot 50p and deal down to 25p and get realtime without ugly frame blending or any other complications. So if 48p is the absolute ma speed then please red make a format slightly smaller and call it 4k Euro or such that works for 50p.

 

[jimhare]

Red kind of forgot the pal land when setitng the limit to 48p

Not sure that's a fair assessment, they obviously left NTSC out of it as well by not including 60P.

But yes, if they could squeeze out a couple of more frames with a smaller size, that would help.

Having said that, the more I see 48P the less I like it!

 

[sander kamp]

Okay I understand. For live events where you don't know which shots you want to use later as slow motion it makes sense to shoot 50p.

But for music videos I don't think it is necessary. As I said, speed up your sync track to 192% for the production and later conform your footage to 25p and 50p. Then use the original track and you don't have any frame blending or double frames, which was the original poster's problem I think. The only thing is that it requires a bit more thinking and planning ahead.

 

[Bart de Graaf]

Okay I understand. For live events where you don't know which shots you want to use later as slow motion it makes sense to shoot 50p.

But for music videos I don't think it is necessary. As I said, speed up your sync track to 192% for the production and later conform your footage to 25p and 50p. Then use the original track and you don't have any frame blending or double frames, which was the original poster's problem I think. The only thing is that it requires a bit more thinking and planning ahead.

Hi Sander,

You are right about the fact that it can be solved. The problem I bump into, is the changing of my workflow. Instead of 'throwing' the .R3D's into premiere, it takes more time.
So for now I have to be realistic; is it wise to shoot on a RED Scarlet? It looked like the workflow was ok to make the change.
But for now it will take way more time.... and not because of the computer system that lacks speed, but because of frame-rates (stupid way to lose time on imho).

So we will get an epic...


Solved.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Hi Sander,

You are right about the fact that it can be solved. The problem I bump into, is the changing of my workflow. Instead of 'throwing' the .R3D's into premiere, it takes more time.
So for now I have to be realistic; is it wise to shoot on a RED Scarlet? It looked like the workflow was ok to make the change.
But for now it will take way more time.... and not because of the computer system that lacks speed, but because of frame-rates (stupid way to lose time on imho).

So we will get an epic...


Solved.

That is ofcourse a very workable solution, I do not think you will look back